Kissing

[Blueboy1938]

It used to be considered rude to actually touch your lips to the hand of a lady. You bowed over her proffered hand, even if she "helpfully" lifted it upward. But that was in Victorian times, or maybe later in France.

Now it is polite to wait for a lady to extend her hand, grasp it gently, and then release it after a moment or two. No bowing or kissing of hands nowadays, unless at a reenactment Civil War or Victorian Ball.

[rlp271]

Rip,

I do not think you are wrong at all. It is increasingly rare for girls and women to attend finishing schools, because the focus is on academic education. However, there are still people who attend finishing school, as the Institut Villa Pierrefeu and others like it, generate enough interest to survive. The average student age of their school year programme is 20. These schools are businesses, not non-profit organisations, therefore, their existence is based on interest and demand.

Please do not misunderstand me, I think it's wonderful that girls/women have the same academic opportunities as do men (at least in the Western world), but too often the finer things in life are overlooked, ignored or simply deemed unimportant. I am not proposing a return to the 19th century, and a curriculum that consists solely of cooking, dress-making, floral decorations, event planning, French conversation, etc., but I cannot deny that these skills have been very helpful. I was recently at my local dry cleaner, when a woman in her early 40s walked in holding two cashmere jumpers with moth holes. She had matching thread to fix the holes, but did not know how to do it. Her words were something like this: I'm a marketing director, not a seamstress! Unfortunately, my dry cleaner does not do things like that. I offered her my assistance, and we sat down together at the neighbouring Starbucks, where I showed her how to repair the pullovers with a needle from the small sewing kit I always carry. She told me that in the past she would have simply tossed them out (these were $200 a piece!), but the economic situation made her think twice. She said her mother had always fixed things, but she never saw the need to acquire such skills.

Who mandates that one type of education must always exclude the other? Why can't we have etiquette training/finishing school lessons and academic/professional credentials? They are not mutually exclusive, but rather mutually beneficial.

Alright, very long post, and I will now get off my soap box and bid you a fond farewell.

I think this is where we differ in opinion. I don't believe that people have completely separated professional education and etiquette. I think people have simply changed their view of each type of education. Especially because such finishing schools have become almost entirely attended by those in the upper class. Very few middle to lower class individuals would have access to such schooling. The teachings of the old-guard about what made men men and women women shouldn't be completely forgotten. Nor have they been. I do open doors for my girlfriend, and even pull out chairs. I simply do not see where kissing a women's hand has a true place in modern society.

This is not to say that the old and new don't or can't coexist, it is simply saying that as we move forward, there will be certain traditions that are left behind. If a man insults me, I don't find it necessary to challenge him to a duel of swords or guns to regain my honor. I think that's a tradition we've been glad to see off.

To me, and many I know, kissing a woman's hand outside of very specific circumstances (certain balls, galas, or reenactments), at our age, is generally unheard of.

[Jovan]

The opinions of the women who contributed to this thread are much appreciated. I think many of the other guys here are overthinking this.

[Persephone]

It used to be considered rude to actually touch your lips to the hand of a lady. You bowed over her proffered hand, even if she "helpfully" lifted it upward.

That's still considered the proper way to do it. No actual touching of lips and hand occurs.

[Persephone]

I think this is where we differ in opinion. I don't believe that people have completely separated professional education and etiquette. I think people have simply changed their view of each type of education. Especially because such finishing schools have become almost entirely attended by those in the upper class. Very few middle to lower class individuals would have access to such schooling. The teachings of the old-guard about what made men men and women women shouldn't be completely forgotten. Nor have they been. I do open doors for my girlfriend, and even pull out chairs. I simply do not see where kissing a women's hand has a true place in modern society.

This is not to say that the old and new don't or can't coexist, it is simply saying that as we move forward, there will be certain traditions that are left behind. If a man insults me, I don't find it necessary to challenge him to a duel of swords or guns to regain my honor. I think that's a tradition we've been glad to see off.

To me, and many I know, kissing a woman's hand outside of very specific circumstances (certain balls, galas, or reenactments), at our age, is generally unheard of.

Unfortunately, I think etiquette and professional/academic education did get separated. Elsewhere on this forum, there is a wonderful and very informative thread about etiquette dinners offered by universities, because students/graduates often lack these skills.

However, I don't think we very much disagree at all. Finishing schools do indeed target mostly upper and upper-middle class families -- or those who desperately want to belong there . I also do not expect every man I meet to kiss my hand, but I also never stated that. If I meet a man in a business setting, I shake hands with him. If I meet a male friend at a cafe, we may shake hands, hug, kiss on the cheek, etc. My comment referred to social situations, specifically formal events, where it is still quite proper and appreciated. Even in Victorian times, gentlemen did not normally kiss a lady's hand on the street.

[Marcus Brody]

If it is a man I will take his hand in mine and shake it while looking him directly in the eyes and smiling.

If it is a woman I will greet her if introduced, and if she proffers her hand, i will gently grasp her fingers between my thumb and fingers (thumb on top) and hold it for a second or two (maybe even with a slight up and down movement) while looking her directly in the eyes and smiling.

I have similar habits.

If I'm introduced to a woman, I grasp her hand gently, but only raise it slightly rather than shaking it. I do this while looking at her while bow/tilting my head in acknowledgment. Huh. I never really thought of that explicitly before.


Back to kissing: I lived in Spain for a while, and was happy to kiss on both cheeks (or more exactly, in the air right on both sides of them) as it seemed normal and friendly when greeting someone of the opposite sex, even if you didn't know someone that well. That being said, I wouldn't kiss a woman's hand here. It think that she would think it strange.

[Ricardo-CL]

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

This topic is a very interesting one, and instead of starting another topic to introduce myself, I'd like to start here by telling my experiences in this regard.

I'm an engineer and have been into a lot of different places, either studying or working, and let me tell you that regarding kissing the best thing to do is to be prepared beforehand. I myself don't like to kiss women in the cheek(s) when I first met them, but in some places, like many cities in Latinamerica, if you don't do that, they label you as unpolite.

But for us, men, I think it's easier to get used to kiss or not to, but women on the other hand, for example from places like Poland (my girlfriend is Polish), take months or even years to get used to be saluted with a kiss in the cheek by a complete stranger.

In my opinion, the golden rule is, if nobody turns to watch the way you salute, then it's fine. And last, but not least, if you're invited to an event, the host will be more than glad to tell you about the local protocol, while you build an image of yourself as a very thorough gentleman.

P.S.: English is my third tongue, I hope you don't mind to read a couple of mistakes every once in a while.

[lt114]

I just go right in with the tounge, if it's a lady. Also, if you're going to actually kiss her hand, sucking on her fingers might be appropriate.

[DukeGrad]

I agree with him. I have never shook hands with a woman.
A simple tonguing is very appropriate, and suck her fingers or toes.
This is the way to do it!
Nice day

[eagle2250]

^^
LOL...but, only if you are at a Southern barbecue and your lady friend happens to be a sloppy eater. Though, even then, it constitutes more of an act of grooming your mate, than your inaugural greeting of a female acquaintance!

[Relayer]

Once, during an afternoon-long... interlude with a good friend we took a little break for a room-service meal. I can't remember what we had but sat on the bed and ate it with our fingers... something a bit messy. When we finished she very sensuously took my hand and proceeded to slowly suck each finger clean. As soon as she was finished I grabbed my napkin and dried off my hand and fingers. She frowned and told me that was terribly unromantic!

[eagle2250]

^^
ROFALOL! Busted!

[WouldaShoulda]

I usually fall right off to sleep after!!

[KenR]

Acting like Harpo Marx in a sexual frenzy works for me when being introduced to a woman.

[KennethB]

What a freaky thread. I can't imagine bowing and kissing a woman's hand. It seems so theatrical and absurd. How would she reply, "Thank you m'Lord." or something?

My wife is Italian, so I had to learn to cheek kiss at every hello and goodbye, but that is a much more current practice - at least as I've noticed - among Southern Europeans and many younger Americans.

[Pier lala]

You should leave that handkiss for special occasions, to see a twinkle in her eyes.

(that is, when you are wearing the right shoes.)

[Srynerson]

Okay,

I'm hardly an expert, but I wanted to get some opinions on what is a fairly common practice among my circle of friends.

When meeting a newly introduced woman, I will frequently grasp her hand, bow slightly and meet her hand with my lips. Or her wrist, depending on how old she is. It's as intimate as I get with 98% of women, and it's a popular gesture among the more continental of my comrades.

OK, Lethbridge is apparently a lot different than it was when I used to live in Alberta....

[Sufferable Fob]

Like a straw boater, I like the idea but find it comes off as ridiculous in modern life.


Plus, I'm not very touchy-feely. Getting hugged by family makes me feel awkward. Kissing people I've just met makes me feel like I might explode a little - and not in a good way.

[EmbraBhoy]

Public, Meeting Hugs, as it were, weird me out enough before we get into kissing.

[My Pet, A Pantsuit]

Now that I think about, when I extend my hand to women in a social setting, I do so by flatly holding out my palm to receive theirs and lower it gently, followed by a slight bow of the neck. It's really quite subconscious, and I don't know that it follows any edict of what is "proper," but it communicates gentle respect without coming off affected.

In a business setting, though, regular handshakes are the norm.

[mjc]

Sounds highly anachronistic and odd.

If you tried that here in (the English parts of) Ottawa, you would be called a blackguard, be slapped with a glove, and then fight a duel at dawn.

The rules are completely different in French Canada, of course.

- Mike

[Scoundrel]

Sounds highly anachronistic and odd.

If you tried that here in (the English parts of) Ottawa, you would be called a blackguard, be slapped with a glove, and then fight a duel at dawn.

The rules are completely different in French Canada, of course.

- Mike

Now I'm intrigued.

[mjc]

Indeed. A gentleman is well advised to carry a saber at all times, so as to swiftly punish such rapscallions!

Sadly, sabers are difficult to find, and one must resort to refurbishment.

[Orsini]

Indeed. A gentleman is well advised to carry a saber at all times, so as to swiftly punish such rapscallions!

Sadly, sabers are difficult to find, and one must resort to refurbishment.

http://www.museumreplicas.com/c-15-s...s-daggers.aspx

Skip the main page -- takes forever to load...

[Musick]

What a freaky thread. I can't imagine bowing and kissing a woman's hand. It seems so theatrical and absurd. How would she reply, "Thank you m'Lord." or something?

My wife is Italian, so I had to learn to cheek kiss at every hello and goodbye, but that is a much more current practice - at least as I've noticed - among Southern Europeans and many younger Americans.

I must go with the general consensus and say the bow and hand kiss is on the outdated side. It may work some of the time, but my guess is that it will be awkward more often than not.

That said, I would never shake hands with a woman, unless it is in a professional setting.

As a man, I generally go for an "air" kiss to each cheek. Not lip-to-skin, but cheek-to-cheek contact. I do this to the ladies I know as acquaintances, to those I barely know.

This goes over without a hitch when the ladies in question are of European or Mid-East background in my experience. Eight times out of ten, it works fine for those of US origin as well. Sorry, but I cant comment with certainity as to the proper etiquette in Canada.