Who are the British? personal identity

[Svenn]

As an American where "white" is about as specific as anyone gets with regards to heritage, I've always wondered how the British view themselves, and how distinct the ethnic differences are in that country. In other words, how great is the extent to which the English proper look down upon the Welsh, Scottish, and Irish (in order of disgust)? Would an Englishman's family feel akward eating dinner with a Welshman or Scot? Also, do the English themselves really feel an attachment to their partial Germanic heritage, or is there a benevolence towards the Celtic influence which gave them the very name British? I apologize if these are current heated issues, or maybe they're antiquated problems that have long passed?

[vwdolly]

As a Brit I dont have any issues with scots, irish or welshman and certainly would never feel disgust at any of them. I know some great people from all these areas, its an outdated view that we do not get on. Britain is now very multi cultural, and i think as a society we have to all make an effort to be respectfull of everyones backgrounds and views. Of course being British is something to be proud of, but not at the expense of being rude to others

[culverwood]

We are a little annoyed at the moment being governed by Scots and by Scots MPs who can vote on English issues whereas their own parliament decide such matters North of the border. These things are political niggles and there is no ethnic difference.

Now if you include the French in the mix.

[DougNZ]

An interest point, I think, is that English often think of themselves as British whereas the Scots and Welsh think of themselves as Scots and Welsh. Maybe for the English this is a hangover of the Empire mentality which tended to be very culturally inclusive. Countries in the far corners of the Empire were still well respected not least because they were seen as exotic and were the source of great wealth for many people.

[WouldaShoulda]

As an American where "white" is about as specific as anyone gets with regards to heritage....

In DC, the South, and perhaps the Pacific Northwest, most White Americans are of a plain vanilla persuasion of Scot/English or German.

In Chicago/NY/Philly/Baltimore corridor there are still very distinct cultural identities in the Italian/Greek/Polish and Irish communities.

While it's never come to blows, I often have to watch my language around Italians!!

[Svenn]

In DC, the South, and perhaps the Pacific Northwest, most White Americans are of a plain vanilla persuasion of Scot/English or German.

In Chicago/NY/Philly/Baltimore corridor there are still very distinct cultural identities in the Italian/Greek/Polish and Irish communities.

While it's never come to blows, I often have to watch my language around Italians!!

Interesting, haha. I'm from the Northwest and I've never been to that East Coast corridor so I guess I've never seen Italian or Irish communities. That's interesting that you say "Scot/English" and don't include Irish... I was looking through my family tree and saw plenty of Scottish, English, and Welsh names but no Irish. I guess I always assumed they had mixed in with most Americans long ago, but I guess not in my situation.

I brought this topic up because I remember seeing one of those "Just for laughs" prank shows and an old Englishman being pestered by the actor kept asking her "are you Scot? I say, are you a Scot?" as if to imply only a Scot would be irritating. It just made me wonder, are there some old country clubs in New England where I'd get some glances if my last name was 'McNelly' or something?

[Matthew Schitck]

I always imagined that most Americans were quite keen on their heritage. I've encountered serveral Americans who have proudly explained their families journey to the US from the "old country", often several hundred years of history tripped off their tongues.
In the UK levels of nationalism and any associated ill feeling vary as much as they must do in all countries (DougNZ, no members of a nation ever thinks in exactly the same way about anything). The obvious examples are above: VW Dolly takes an entirely sensible position, whereas culverwood draws up paranoid nationalistic bounderies (unless he has some specific examples).

[turban1]

The English
(Flanders & Swan)

The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You'll find he's a stinker as likely as not

The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

The Scotsman is mean as we're all well aware
He's boney and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And hasn't got bishops to show him the way

The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

The Irishman now our contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third

The English are moral the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood

The Welshman's dishonest, he cheats when he can
He's little and dark more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp on his hat
And sings far too loud, far too often and flat

The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

And crossing the channel one cannot say much
For the French or the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed

The English are noble, the English are nice
And worth any other at double the price

And all the world over each nation's the same
They've simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won
And they practice before hand which ruins the fun

The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

It's not that they're wicked or naturally bad
It's just that they're foreign that makes them so mad
The English are all that a nation should be
And the pride of the English are Donald and me

The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

[Kingstonian]

This is in the style and spirit of Flanders and Swann :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL1zs...E3BD1&index=14

Though these days you would probably be prosecuted for singing it.

[Svenn]

The Welshman's dishonest, he cheats when he can
He's little and dark more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp on his hat
And sings far too loud, far too often and flat

It's impossible to find historical racial information anymore these days because it's not 'politically correct', but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that the English, even the royalty, are not an entirely Germanic people but significantly interfused with the original Celtic inhabitants of the Isles. Though actually I'm not sure I even buy the argument that there are distinct 'races' in Northern Europe- the mere fact that say Wales happens to have a larger number of short dark-complexion people and the Danelaw has a higher number of blondes doesn't mean those characteristics are exclusivly origined in those peoples. In other words, a tall blonde Welshman could be 100% Welsh since antiquity and a short black-eyed Swede could be pure Swedish.

It's interesting though that those songs didn't make fun of the Danes or Scandinavians... do the Englishman still feel a connection to Denmark? i.e. through the Angles and Jutes? I thought Shakespeare's choice for Hamlet's country had something to do with that....

[Portly_polar_bear]

I think it's true to say that genetically we are both the native inhabitants of the land and the later invaders too.

I did read somewhere that the Welsh are genetically 'purer' than the rest of the UK i.e. there has been less intermingling with invaders due to the security of their mountain fastnesses. The English and Scots were well infiltrated; much northern vernacular has Scandinavian roots -- Fell (Fjellet) for a hill, Dale (Dalen) for a valley etc -- and Old Norse was still being spoken in the Islands a century or so ago.

Historically English nationalism has been lower profile than Welsh or Scottish though it is more visible today. Perhaps because England was the dominant partner for so long but is now faced by the might of the EU? Nationalism/patriotism is a funny mix of pride and an inferiority complex a lot of the time -- I've always thought it rather un-English.

[Chouan]

The Flanders & Swann song is, of course, tongue in cheek.
"Donald Swann was born in Llanelli, Wales. His father was a Russian doctor of English descent, from the expatriate community that started out as the Muscovy Company, and his mother was a nurse from Transcaspia — they were refugees from the Russian Revolution. "
Recent research, based on the DNA of a caveman's remains found in Cheddar Gorge, found that over 90% of the population had DNA that was linked to his remains, one "very close" match, and 2 exact matches.
If there is any hostility between English, Welsh, Scots and Irish, it tends to be from the Welsh, Scots and Irish towards the English, rather than the other way round. They almost invariably will support any team that England is playing, rather than England. Most English people that I know will support any British team against a truly foreign one.

[cactiman]

I wouldn't say there was real hostility from the English to Scots/Welsh/Irish, though there is some ignorance. I still see English people frequently confusing British with English and including Scots/Welsh especially as English rather than recognising their own national identities, or even Britishness.

There is some hostility from Scots to English, though its mostly either political or - relatively - good natured 'glad we're not like those English'. Mostly its historical & exhibited most frequently in football & humour rather than anything serious.

I'd agree with DougNZ's point "that English often think of themselves as British whereas the Scots and Welsh think of themselves as Scots and Welsh." Its a generalisation of course, but one I recognise.
As a Scot I identify myself as Scottish and see Britishness as purely a political construct, used most often by the English, rather than an actual national identity - for me at any rate others will feel differently.

[turban1]

As a Scot I identify myself as Scottish and see Britishness as purely a political construct, used most often by the English, rather than an actual national identity - for me at any rate others will feel differently.

as a UK immigrant, i refer to myself as British because i am neither an ethnic scot, welshman nor englishman. most of my english friends choose based on circumstances - abroad they identify themselves as british but among britons they say english. it makes sense, rather.

[Leather man]

As a people group the English in general do not know nor are they generally interested in their ethnic identity. Education does not deal with it - probably the PC agenda.

Two large studies have shown two different outcomes:

Brian Sykes ( Oxford Uni) genetic research has shown that whilst there is a strong north german element to the English its only about 30% and strongest in the north, midlands and east.

Bangor University (Wales) genetic research showed that 80-100% of native English men are descended on their father's side from north germans or vikings.

Go figure!

I strongly suspect that the outcome is affected by what the researchers wanted to find in the first place. The findings certainly reflect the researchers' political views.

All research agrees that in the far south of England you find a very high celtic make up - but only one study I've read realises the obvious point that there were huge deportations to the colonies from the South East which was repopulated as a deliberate act of industrialsts and commercial types by Welsh people - so you find a high number of people with Welsh ancestory in the SE of England - much more than anywhere else.

[Chouan]

All research agrees that in the far south of England you find a very high celtic make up - but only one study I've read realises the obvious point that there were huge deportations to the colonies from the South East which was repopulated as a deliberate act of industrialsts and commercial types by Welsh people - so you find a high number of people with Welsh ancestory in the SE of England - much more than anywhere else.[/quote]

As a Historian I'd be very interested to hear what this "All research" is. I've certainly never been aware of "huge deportations to the colonies from the South East ", neither am I aware of the South East being "repopulated as a deliberate act of industrialsts and commercial types by Welsh people".

[Leather man]

All research agrees that in the far south of England you find a very high celtic make up - but only one study I've read realises the obvious point that there were huge deportations to the colonies from the South East which was repopulated as a deliberate act of industrialsts and commercial types by Welsh people - so you find a high number of people with Welsh ancestory in the SE of England - much more than anywhere else.

As a Historian I'd be very interested to hear what this "All research" is. I've certainly never been aware of "huge deportations to the colonies from the South East ", neither am I aware of the South East being "repopulated as a deliberate act of industrialsts and commercial types by Welsh people".[/quote]


You will have to do your own research as I did. Read the myriad of books and on line articles - chose the scholarly ones not the more whimsical ones.

[ourkid]

Sounds like poppycock to me. There was mass migration from the British Isles in the 18th and 19th centuries, including significant numbers of people heading to N America and Australasia from Ireland and the west of Scotland as a result of famine and land clearance but the notion that the South East of England was some sort of underpopulated wasteland, made ready for roaming Welsh settlers to inhabit, is patent nonsense.

[Portly_polar_bear]

All research agrees that in the far south of England you find a very high celtic make up

In the far south i.e. Cornwall I would readily believe that.

As for the SE this is the first I've heard of 'mass deportations' to make way for the Welsh. When did this alledgedly happen?

[ourkid]

To return to the OP's question I'd say that the key thing to note is that for such a geographically small country the British Isles are hugely varied in terms of population and people's perception of their own identity is often not dependant on any rational analysis.

For example and as others have stated, if you ask somebody from Wales if they're Welsh or British then they'll typically say that they're Welsh, but if you ask the same person to tell you where they're from then they may be considerably more location specific. People from Swansea, for example, would hate anyone to think that they were from Cardiff and vice versa.

Similar distinctions exist between other cities with long histories of rivalry, witness the antipathy between people from Liverpool and Manchester, Newcastle and Sunderland, Nottingham and Derby, Ipswich and Norwich, Glasgow and Edinburgh and so on.

This sort of regional pride isn't confined to big cities as demonstrated on a smaller scale by events such as Ashbourne's Royal Shrovetide Football Match, which divides villagers based on which side of the local river they live. In numerous parts of the country such bitter rivalries have festered over hundreds of years, all of which adds to the rich tapestry of life in Britain.

To add further to the complexity there are historical county or regional rivalries, for example the Roses counties of Lancashire and Yorkshire have no great love for each other and northerners and southerners, in England at least, may not always see eye to eye.

In essence the people of the British Isles seem determined to find ways to assert their local / city / county / regional / national / international identity whenever the mood or situation demands. This type of antagonistic behaviour typically works best if a suitable opposite number can be found. Thus someone from Cardiff may not think much of people from Swansea but they'll both happily dislike the English until somebody questions their 'Britishness' in which case we'll all hate the Germans.

On a day to day basis we really do all get on and although there is some (mostly) light-hearted banter I'd say that the whole 'them and us' or 'us against the world' mentality isn't always such a bad thing. It's just a bit of a potential minefield for the uninitiated.

Just my thoughts,

Peter

[anglophile23]

^Don't forget Kentish men and Men of Kent

[ourkid]

It should have been top of my list, given the number of years I lived in Canterbury.

[cactiman]

Two large studies have shown two different outcomes:

Brian Sykes ( Oxford Uni) genetic research has shown that whilst there is a strong north german element to the English its only about 30% and strongest in the north, midlands and east.

Bangor University (Wales) genetic research showed that 80-100% of native English men are descended on their father's side from north germans or vikings.

Go figure!

I strongly suspect that the outcome is affected by what the researchers wanted to find in the first place. The findings certainly reflect the researchers' political views.

It is perfectly possible for both studies to be perfectly accurate & scientifically unbiased. Its just a matter of which gene or set of genes (used as identifiers of a certain historical or current ethnic/regional group) are studied & looked for by the researchers. Unless both sets of genes are mutually exclusive, which I believe is unlikely given the mixing of genes over that number of generations, you can easily get a situation where the sample population has both genes showing they're descended from Vikings/North Germans (have X gene) & not descended from Vikings/North Germans (don't have Y gene) (where both X & Y genes would have been present in the original Viking population). For a better explanation of this read 'Eve's Tale' from 'The Ancestor's Tale' by Richard Dawkins.

[Chouan]

As a Historian I'd be very interested to hear what this "All research" is. I've certainly never been aware of "huge deportations to the colonies from the South East ", neither am I aware of the South East being "repopulated as a deliberate act of industrialsts and commercial types by Welsh people".

You will have to do your own research as I did. Read the myriad of books and on line articles - chose the scholarly ones not the more whimsical ones.[/quote]

What a cop out!
In other words, I can't support my assertion with evidence, so I'll avoid the argument by assuming some kind of moral superiority. It won't wash I'm afraid! You made the assertion, you need to support it!

[Svenn]

Thus someone from Cardiff may not think much of people from Swansea but they'll both happily dislike the English until somebody questions their 'Britishness' in which case we'll all hate the Germans.

Haha! In my personal opinion, there can never be too much contempt for the Krauts. Servile automatons they are.

That's a bit unsettling from a previous post that the majority Welsh would support the foreign team rather than England in a football match. Do others agree that's actually what would happen? That would be a fairly substantial schism of identity if true.