WouldaShoulda

Suspended
However, until honesty and doing the right thing becomes more important than "winning," both of you will manage to divide and eventually destroy our society until there is nothing worth "winning" for either of you.
I'd like to think that the compassion displayed by organizations like the NAACP before they simply bacame a political tool, Or Planned Parenthood prior to becoming an abortion mill, or the Salvation Army and Goodwill, would be expanded upon to provide the needed services they offer with neither Federal interference or funding, for the benefit of the needy.
 

Mike Petrik

Honors Member
I'd like to think that the compassion displayed by organizations like the NAACP before they simply bacame a political tool, Or Planned Parenthood prior to becoming an abortion mill, or the Salvation Army and Goodwill, would be expanded upon to provide the needed services they offer with neither Federal interference or funding, for the benefit of the needy.
I'd like to think that too, but don't. As a Salvation Army and United Way board member I agree that the non-profit sector is vital to meeting the needs of Americans in distress, but I also think that there is a role for the body politic to use government as its agent as well (I'm not a libertarian). That said, I cannot fathom why it is government's job to guarantee contraception for all. And the notion that this is such a compelling federal interest that the government may force its citizens to commit acts that are violative of their religious beliefs in order to satisfy it is ridiculous on its face and unconscionable.
 

TomS

New Member
That said, I cannot fathom why it is government's job to guarantee contraception for all. And the notion that this is such a compelling federal interest that the government may force its citizens to commit acts that are violative of their religious beliefs in order to satisfy it is ridiculous on its face and unconscionable.
You'll have to excuse my peculiar British notion that healthcare is a right for all, not just those who can afford it.

Would you ask those who can't find the money for contraceptives to abstain? I doubt it. Unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases cost money to treat, and it's far more efficient to make contraception available cheaply and easily than to deal with the alternatives.
 

tocqueville

Suspended
I'd like to think that the compassion displayed by organizations like the NAACP before they simply bacame a political tool, Or Planned Parenthood prior to becoming an abortion mill, or the Salvation Army and Goodwill, would be expanded upon to provide the needed services they offer with neither Federal interference or funding, for the benefit of the needy.
An abortion mill? Really?
 

Jovan

Honors Member
Thanks, I appreciate your candor.

Now that we agree the facts are not in dispute, it makes me wonder what the circus is for.

The only thing I can think of is to distract a voting segment from those facts.

But I will admit, sometimes I don't mind feeding the donkeys just for giggles!!
I don't think you're quite as clever as you think you are.

This is the same BACKWARD reasoning you have used many times out here. Like when you said that asking the poor to pay to have photo IDs in order to vote was not an impediment to them being able to do so.

In case you missed it, some people dont have any "extra" money to pay for things which should already be covered under their exsisting health insurance plan - nor should they have to.

So that fact that the plan at Georgetown covers Viagra with a simple co-pay - yet expects women to come up with $50+ dollars a month (on top of what they already pay for their health plan) makes it a barrier that some people cant afford.

But I wouldnt expect you compassionate folks on the right to give a rip about that.
I couldn't have said it better.

You'll have to excuse my peculiar British notion that healthcare is a right for all, not just those who can afford it.

Would you ask those who can't find the money for contraceptives to abstain? I doubt it. Unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases cost money to treat, and it's far more efficient to make contraception available cheaply and easily than to deal with the alternatives.
But affordable healthcare for all is so COMMUNIST and SOCIALIST!!!

Good last point there. Also, in areas where sexual education is taught in public schools, there are far less teen pregnancies and STDs than areas that teach abstinence-only. This is a proven fact, time and again. Ignoring an issue does not make it go away. People will always want to have sex. There is nothing you can do except ensure they are educated and safe about it.

An abortion mill? Really?
From Wikipedia: "Contraception accounts for 35% of PPFA's total services and abortions account for 3%; PPFA conducts roughly 300,000 abortions each year, among 3 million people served." 300k may sound like a lot, but out of the approximately three million people who use their services every year... hardly an abortion mill.

Yes. It was, moreover, profoundly sexist.
Indeed. Though Maher seems to think Limbaugh's halfhearted apology was enough. I don't know.

I'm also unsure about Fluke taking him to court. Why dignify his remarks by doing that? Plus, for every pundit you take out, there's hundreds more waiting to take their place.
 
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Regillus

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
You'll have to excuse my peculiar British notion that healthcare is a right for all, not just those who can afford it.

Would you ask those who can't find the money for contraceptives to abstain? I doubt it. Unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases cost money to treat, and it's far more efficient to make contraception available cheaply and easily than to deal with the alternatives.
Yes!, yes!; a thousand times yes! All in favor of the U.S. adopting a Canadian-style single-payer health care system say aye. I want to refresh people's memories of the practice that existed back in the 20's, 30's and 40's. There were places - I forget what they were called - where pregnant middle-class teen girls were sent. The girls stayed there until they had their baby; then were pressured into signing adoption papers giving away their babies. The worst part about these places was this: They were run by people with absolutely no medical training whatsoever. Most infant deliveries go normally; no problems. However, you do have the occasional difficult delivery. You had non-medical people trying to deal with breech babies etc. One of the usual problems to encounter during a difficult delivery is heavy bleeding. The bleeding has to be stopped or the girl can bleed to death. So these non-medical people were trying whatever they could think of to stop the bleeding, and sometimes they were successful and sometimes they were not. In those cases; the girl bled to death. So, today, to have a place like Planned Parenthood to go to where a delivery or an abortion can be performed by a DOCTOR who knows how to handle any complications and heavy bleeding can be addressed in the correct manner is a godsend for young women.
 

Bjorn

Moderator
Interesting debate. Very mid 20th century.

It's not like contraceptives is actually an impeding cost for the state, so I'm guessing this is just about some people (the haves) wanting to push their values on other people (usually the have nots).

The separation of state and church is important. Basis of freedom in accordance with many thinkers.
 

TomS

New Member
Interesting debate. Very mid 20th century.

It's not like contraceptives is actually an impeding cost for the state, so I'm guessing this is just about some people (the haves) wanting to push their values on other people (usually the have nots).

The separation of state and church is important. Basis of freedom in accordance with many thinkers.
That's it, I'm moving to Sweden.
 

VictorRomeo

Super Member
Interesting debate. Very mid 20th century.

It's not like contraceptives is actually an impeding cost for the state, so I'm guessing this is just about some people (the haves) wanting to push their values on other people (usually the have nots).

The separation of state and church is important. Basis of freedom in accordance with many thinkers.
Indeed. Especially when you consider the vast amounts of money thrown into the Military and related 'businesses'.

I mean, the notion that conservatism is about protecting the standards and morals of a Nation is a fallacy. Conservatism(like patriotism) is a ruse protect the interests of a few with interests that need protecting.
 

Jovan

Honors Member
That's it, I'm moving to Sweden.
The grass is always greener on the other side. Sweden is a great country, no doubt, but like Canada (my birth country) it isn't a perfect progressive utopia. In particular:

"In Sweden, sterilization is only compulsory before sex change.[SUP][25][/SUP] This last compulsory sterilization has been criticized by several political parties in Sweden. The Christian Democrats is the only party in the Parliament of Sweden that is in favor of keeping compulsory sterilization."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#Sweden

Why does it not surprise me that the Christian Democrats are the only ones who still want this. -_- Thankfully there's overwhelming opposition to it now and I hope it is abolished soon.
 

WouldaShoulda

Suspended
It's not like contraceptives is actually an impeding cost for the state, so I'm guessing this is just about some people (the haves) wanting to push their values on other people (usually the have nots).
In the US our States and Counties have public health facilities. While they may receive Federal funding, it is counter to American ideology (at least until recently) to have a central governing authority running them. Here, an underserved public regularly receives afforbale services including BC.

The only value I'm interested in "pushing" is that of independence and self reliance. It is not a religious issue. Admittedly, some have unwisely taken this tack on it.
 

WouldaShoulda

Suspended
From Wikipedia: "Contraception accounts for 35% of PPFA's total services and abortions account for 3%; PPFA conducts roughly 300,000 abortions each year, among 3 million people served." 300k may sound like a lot, but out of the approximately three million people who use their services every year...

....hardly an abortion mill.
That takes care of 38% of their budget. What happens to the other 62%??

Why has PP failed so miserably in it's primary mission to serve women that 30 year old third year law students at Georgetown U have to be burdened by paying for their own BC??

What organization provides more abortion services than PP??
 

WouldaShoulda

Suspended
Exactly right.
If Bjorn was "exactly right" where am I exatly wrong when I stated In the US our States and Counties have public health facilities. Here, an underserved public regularly receives afforbale services including BC.

Clearly, access to free BC services for the poor exists and will continue to exist.

Do you think PP has failed in their primary mission??
 

TomS

New Member
The grass is always greener on the other side. Sweden is a great country, no doubt, but like Canada (my birth country) it isn't a perfect progressive utopia. In particular:

"In Sweden, sterilization is only compulsory before sex change.[SUP][25][/SUP] This last compulsory sterilization has been criticized by several political parties in Sweden. The Christian Democrats is the only party in the Parliament of Sweden that is in favor of keeping compulsory sterilization."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#Sweden

Why does it not surprise me that the Christian Democrats are the only ones who still want this. -_- Thankfully there's overwhelming opposition to it now and I hope it is abolished soon.
That I did not know! Interesting, if perturbing.

I have friends in Uppsala who I really must visit again sometime. It's not a magical paradise, but they do seem to have got a lot right. Of course, a lot of it is only possible because they have a population of around 9m.
 
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