'Brutality in Mexico: The Horror. The Horror.'

Fogey

Elite Member
Brutality In Mexico

The Horror. The Horror.


By Fred Reed

April 19, 2006

Bobbling about on the web, like flotsam in some drear tidal pool, is a piece purporting to show that Mexico mistreats immigrants in all manner of ways offensive to the North American soul. Most curious. I am one of those immigrants, and still waiting to be mistreated.

The specific charges:

“In brief, the Mexican Constitution states that:
Immigrants and foreign visitors are banned from public political discourse.
Immigrants and foreigners are denied certain basic property rights.
Immigrants are denied equal employment rights.
Immigrants and naturalized citizens will never be treated as real Mexican citizens.
Immigrants and naturalized citizens are not to be trusted in public service.
Immigrants and naturalized citizens may never become members of the clergy.
Private citizens may make citizens arrests of lawbreakers (i.e., illegal immigrants) and hand them to the authorities.
Immigrants may be expelled from Mexico for any reason and without due process."

Most of this is true. Much of it is trying too hard. If it is intended to suggest that Mexico behaves badly toward legal immigrants, it is silly. Many hundreds of thousands of American citizens live here and like it. After all, if they didn’t, they could leave. Further, I think the law entirely reasonable—provided that you realize that the Mexican government exists for the benefit of Mexicans, not gringos.

Bear in mind that the United States is far more powerful than Mexico, and far richer, and that America and Americans are by nature meddlesome. At the national level the US tries to impose democracy, change “regimes,†and dictate social policy in all sorts of countries. At the level of the individual, Americans, certainly those in Mexico, try to pass leash laws, make horses wear diapers, regulate smoking, and set closing hours for bars. Neither the US nor most of its people grasp that some things are simply not their business.

Protecting Mexico from such intrusiveness is a concern of the government here.

Politics? No, you may not engage in politics. I am not sure why Americans think they should be permitted to, but I know why Mexicans think that they should not. In the Yankee enclaves, they would take over and run things as they wanted, not as Mexicans want. They would want rules, regulations, correct attitudes, laws, laws, laws. They would want to instruct Mexico. There would be encampments of activists demonstrating in Chiapas. (When the US has solved its own ethnic problems, then perhaps it might make polite suggestions to others. Day after tomorrow, you think?) And a naturalized American is just an American with a different piece of paper in his pocket: Same attitudes, culture, and lack of respect for other countries.

The Mexican approach is, “You are free to live here, but we will make our own laws, thank you.†Which makes perfect sense to me. I came here in large part to escape the micromanagement of everything by the damned government up north.

“Basic property rights� These are what a particular country says they are, not what the United States thinks they ought to be. Things are a tad complex here for historical reasons—the ejidos, land reform for the indigenes and so on. The practical fact is that if they could, Americans and American corporations would buy up, for example, all the best beachfront land. They don’t, because Mexico won’t let them, which is exactly the right policy. (There are complex trusts that let foreigners pretty much own land near the beaches, and many do this.) The fact is that countless gringos own homes in Mexico with no problem. I do, for example.

From the website of Adriana Perez Flores,* my attorney in Mexico: “Until recently, foreigners could not buy land in Mexico unless the title was placed in a Trust (Fideicomiso). Now a foreigner can purchase a home or vacant lot in his own name, except for property located within 50 kilometers of the coast, or national border. A home in Puerto Vallarta or Nuevo Laredo would still need to be purchased in the name of a trust.â€

Employment “rights� Why do Americans think they have a right to work in Mexico? As in most countries you need to get a work permit, and here they tend not to be issued if you are going to take work away from a Mexican. Perversely, Mexico does not believe that it exists to employ gringos. Gosh.

If you want to live here, it’s easy. You get a tourist visa for 90 days when you land (try that in the US), and with no hassle you can then get FM-3 residence status (try that in the US), provided you can demonstrate in income of $1000 a month. (You are welcome, but Mexico isn’t going to support you. Why should it?) Driver’s licenses are easy. You can bring your car and belongings, and no, the police aren’t going to give you a hard time. The government hassles you far here less than does the government up north. But also no, you are not going into politics and, if you do something adequately undesirable, you will be chucked unceremoniously out. And why not?

“Due process� You aren't a citizen. (Read the Patriot Act, by the way.) Behave or go away. Mexico is much less a police state, much less watched, tapped, bugged, cross-referenced, data-based, regulated, intimidated, regimented and politically corrected than the US, which is a major reason why people come here.

Now, Americans will say, “But Fred, all these Mexicans come into the US and get welfare, school for their kids, driver’s licenses and medical care, and don’t pay taxes, and who knows what all. It isn’t fair.â€

To which I respond: “All true. But why is it Mexico’s fault? You practically invite them. Mexico has no obligation to keep its citizens in, though the United States has the right to keep them out. If you folks up north choose to let in poor Mexicans, don’t be surprised when you have poor Mexicans.â€

Note that the immigration problem is entirely of America’s making. Laws, decisions in the courts, amnesties, interpretation of the Constitution, and policy all encourage illegal immigration. What the US does is to say to impoverished and desperate people, “See this river? Don’t cross it. If you do, we’ll give you all sorts of privileges, and jobs, and a chance to advance in life and give your kids a good future. Now, don’t cross it, you hear?â€

Keeping immigrants out would once have been easy, but you didn’t do it. You could have fined employers a thousand dollars a day for hiring illegals, half of it to go to whoever turned the employer in; denied them all services, and deported them instantly. Today, taking things away from people who have lives in the States and kids in the schools would be brutal. (You are going to forcibly deport millions of people? That will be pretty.) And of course they soon come to have the votes to make deportation impossible. But it wouldn’t have been in the beginning. Don’t blame Mexico for having an immigration policy more sensible than yours.


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jbmcb

Senior Member
What exactly does any of this have to do with illegal immigration? I could care less about legal immigrants; if you're here legally, welcome to the US, have a beer and a hamburger (or garden burger, if so inclined.)

He's right, in that we need to police things better, and crack down on companies that hire illegals. Alas, whenever that is tried, one is branded a 'racist' though, last time I checked, "Mexican" isn't a race.


Good/Fast/Cheap - Pick Two
 

Trenditional

Super Member
JLPWCXIII,

What is your country of origin, before you became a resident of Mexico?

I have never been to Mexico, nor do I have any desire to go south of the border. That said, I have heard the stories of the Federalis and their actions to "travelers" both Mexican and American.

I will say that I agree that if you are not a citizen of a country, you can't own land without some sort of Government authorization.

As far as the requirements in this country, requirements are requirements, if you don't like them don't come here. Many immigrants came to this country and jumped through all of the necessary hoops to become a citizen of this country (my grandparents and father did this). I don't have any sympathy for someone who is made to leave who doesn't want to come here legally. I don't care what the temptation is.

Deny Guilt, Demand Proof and Never Speak Without an Attorney!
 

J. Homely

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
All this recent "immigrant rights" babble is getting on my nerves. Immigrants have -- and should have -- no rights other than those expressly granted by their host government. Why the heck Mexico or any other country should afford immigrants any rights Mexico doesn't feel is in its best interest is beyond me.

I always roll my eyes when some American gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar in some country who actually understands what swift and sure justice is. The world is not our frat house.
 

android

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
I think the concept that non-citizens should have the same rights as citizens is stupid and dangerous. I can't think of any other country in the world that allows this. Foreigners in most countries have restricted property rights, privacy rights and a list of other restrictions vs. the citizen.

Illegal immigrants should be treated as criminals. Legal immigrants should be restricted. Naturalized citizens should have full legal rights except those restricted by the Bill of Rights such as certain federal offices.
 

jeffdeist

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
JLPWCXIII;
Thanks very much for posting this enjoyable piece. For those who may not know about Fred Reed, or haven't read his famous essay on Marriage, it's available on his site here:


I for one am a huge fan of Mr. Reed, although happily I ignored his advice and married/procreated.
 

Trenditional

Super Member
quote:Originally posted by J. Homely

All this recent "immigrant rights" babble is getting on my nerves. Immigrants have -- and should have -- no rights other than those expressly granted by their host government. Why the heck Mexico or any other country should afford immigrants any rights Mexico doesn't feel is in its best interest is beyond me.

I always roll my eyes when some American gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar in some country who actually understands what swift and sure justice is. The world is not our frat house.
What comes to mind is a CANE

Deny Guilt, Demand Proof and Never Speak Without an Attorney!
 

Fogey

Elite Member
quote:Originally posted by Trenditional

JLPWCXIII,

What is your country of origin, before you became a resident of Mexico?
I am amazed that you have inferred that I am the author of the article - but I am not. I have posted it simply to stimulate friendly debate.


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Fogey

Elite Member
quote:Originally posted by jeffdeist

JLPWCXIII;
Thanks very much for posting this enjoyable piece. For those who may not know about Fred Reed, or haven't read his famous essay on Marriage, it's available on his site here:


I for one am a huge fan of Mr. Reed, although happily I ignored his advice and married/procreated.
You're very welcome. Thank-you for that link! Ironically, it sounds as though Mr Reed is a bit bitter himself! Though it is quite funny and no doubt there is much truth to it.


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Wayfarer

Honors Member<br>P-Bomb
quote:Originally posted by JLPWCXIII

quote:Originally posted by Trenditional

JLPWCXIII,

What is your country of origin, before you became a resident of Mexico?
I am amazed that you have inferred that I am the author of the article - but I am not. I have posted it simply to stimulate friendly debate.

So to stimulate the debate further my friend, what are your views on the contents of said article?

Warmest regards
 

Fogey

Elite Member
quote:Originally posted by Wayfarer

quote:Originally posted by JLPWCXIII

quote:Originally posted by Trenditional

JLPWCXIII,

What is your country of origin, before you became a resident of Mexico?
I am amazed that you have inferred that I am the author of the article - but I am not. I have posted it simply to stimulate friendly debate.

So to stimulate the debate further my friend, what are your views on the contents of said article?

Warmest regards

It's doubtlessly simplified, but it is a fascinating account of an American who has expatriated to a place whence come so many millions of illegal immigrants to his former homeland - and is happier! The irony is thick, and he has an interesting argument that Mexico of today is truer to the American values of his childhood.



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burnedandfrozen

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
I've heard these things as well. The reason why this is making the news rounds is simply because with all the recent protests one has to wonder how such arrogance is possible when illegal immigrants break the law being here and then demanding all these rights. Like most Americans I have no problem with immigration but this bum rush that is taking place on the border has got to stop. Medical care alone for illegal immigrants costs 7 billion dollars a year if I remember the figure correctly. Every year that illegal immigration increases (which is every year including spikes that occur whenever another amnesty bill gets moving) these costs go up. If I was trying to get into the USA from another country I'd be ticked off beyond belief.
 

Trenditional

Super Member
quote:Originally posted by JLPWCXIII

quote:Originally posted by Trenditional

JLPWCXIII,

What is your country of origin, before you became a resident of Mexico?
I am amazed that you have inferred that I am the author of the article - but I am not. I have posted it simply to stimulate friendly debate.


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My sincere apologies, I skimmed right past the authors name. I am embarassed by this oversight.

Paul

Deny Guilt, Demand Proof and Never Speak Without an Attorney!
 
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