justonemore

Elite Member
That's precisely the sort of thing that should be debated. I dislike the sabre-rattlers because they seem so ready to disregard the price of a military action against Iran, which would be high. Let's be open about the high price and ascertain it in its true proportions; then we can talk for real about whether that price is greater than the price of 'doing nothing' or the risk associated with attempting, say, a negotiated solution. Or is the idea simply threatening in order to win a better deal at the negotiating table? Can that work? What's the risk?
Isn't that the reason you have poiticians? and all the expensive lawyers that go with them? You're not asking for an actual popular vote on the issue are you? Your choice now is to believe bibi or believe in your own government's capabilities.......
 
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tocqueville

Suspended
Isn't that the reason you have poiticians? and all the expensive lawyers that go with them? You're not asking for an actual popular vote on the issue are you?
Yes, and that's why we have things like a National Security Council to figure this stuff out. But to the extent that there is value in public debate, I'd like it be more substantive. Now everyone's going on about Netanyahu, Obama, Boehner, blah blah blah.

By the way, this is also why I tend to support Obama's foreign policies. I think they reflect consideration of the pros/cons/etc, the stuff I've been talking about. Most of the criticism I hear of his policies from the right tends not to have taken into account the "yes, but" that I know Obama's weighing.
 

justonemore

Elite Member
Which is why Bibi should have backed down if he had any respect as to the independant political system of the U.S.....

Public debate? What other issues do we have public debate on? In which areas of the governement and its workings does the public have any direct say? And "élections" don't particularly count.
 

SG_67

Connoisseur
Yes, and that's why we have things like a National Security Council to figure this stuff out. But to the extent that there is value in public debate, I'd like it be more substantive. Now everyone's going on about Netanyahu, Obama, Boehner, blah blah blah.

By the way, this is also why I tend to support Obama's foreign policies. I think they reflect consideration of the pros/cons/etc, the stuff I've been talking about. Most of the criticism I hear of his policies from the right tends not to have taken into account the "yes, but" that I know Obama's weighing.
There's nothing wrong with weighing options and not rushing to judgment. It's an entirely different thing to vacillate and appear as indecisive, particularly with foreign policy. One ought not draw red lines and do nothing when those red lines are crossed. One ought not to proclaim certain terrorist groups as "The JV squad" only to have those words stuffed down his throat less than a year later.

One ought not to go on TV and proclaim that we're safe when members of your own administration go out and proclaim that we face great dangers, and when one member of your administration says that Americans should be concerned about going to the Mall of America.

Obama likes to play out these dramas and wrestle with these things so publically as though he were acting out a scene from Hamlet. In the end, there's just no confidence in his decision making either here or abroad.

At some point decisions need to be made and the back and forth of debate come to an end. Obama seems to think the debate itself if the final product and that the answers will just naturally evolve as a result of consensus. Sometimes difficult decisions need to be made and sometimes, unfortunately, those decisions don't always end up playing out the way they were intended. This is the result of inexperience and not knowing how to make decisions and leading.
 

Acct2000

Connoisseur - Moderator
Plenty of childish behavior on both sides. There were all sorts of ways the communication could have happened. The right and the left were both more interested in slapping each other than communicating. That led to this.

Eventually, while these two sets of idiots keep training their crap on each other, we will start facing things that we can't handle without the ability to produce a united front. Unfortunately, when it happens, the right and left will take much delight in blaming each other. There won't be a real attempt to solve any problem. Right and left just take turns disgusting me.

Now I wait to get flamed by everyone in the thread - - -
 

Acct2000

Connoisseur - Moderator
All this is good for someone. The idiotic rancor produces millions and millions of dollars for people like Al Sharpton and Glenn Beck.
 

tocqueville

Suspended
There's nothing wrong with weighing options and not rushing to judgment. It's an entirely different thing to vacillate and appear as indecisive, particularly with foreign policy. One ought not draw red lines and do nothing when those red lines are crossed.
I agree in this instance. He shouldn't have issued a red line the first place, but once in place...and I hated hearing people in his Admin at the time publicly air different points of view and say things like, "Well, if we were to strike against Syria, maybe we'd only strike against this target at this time on that day and not do anything serious." Jesus. First, shut up. Hem and haw, but keep it classified. Second, if you're going to strike, make it hurt.
 

justonemore

Elite Member
All this is good for someone. The idiotic rancor produces millions and millions of dollars for people like Al Sharpton and Glenn Beck.
What you mention is domestic welfare....This particular idiotic rancor produces billions and billions of dollars in international welfare for people like.....Bibi..... He was afterall prety much the only one to profit from such nonsense (unless the gop can somehow claim a clear win)...


And again. No matter how upset anyone claimed to be... I saw no suggestions as to cutting off the welare checks....Which is a pretty good sign that no one was actually overly upset...
 
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Acct2000

Connoisseur - Moderator
Not so.

Only a minority of Dems acted like babies.

Once again, the side of consensus is the side opposing another bad Obama policy.
No, you, just like most lefties are unable or unwilling to admit to any bad behavior from your side, no matter how awful or destructive it is. Your history here shows that.
 

justonemore

Elite Member
No, you, just like most lefties are unable or unwilling to admit to any bad behavior from your side, no matter how awful or destructive it is. Your history here shows that.
WouldaShoulda a leftie???? Lololol. Now I've heard it all. While You are correct in saying that his hisory here shows a destructive viewpoint, it is on the side of the gopers. Wouldshoulda loves god, republicans, & his own private viewpoint as to what is american versus what isn't. I assure you that there isn't a liberal bone in his body.

He wasn't defending democrats versus trying to claim most demoxrats somehow agreed with the gop .....and he's right... the thought of campaign checks were enough to keep most democrats in line again... any disdain shown was smoke & mirrors
 
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Acct2000

Connoisseur - Moderator
I'm sorry. If you read what I said more carefully you will see what I really meant - - - if you want to.

Everyone who has read more than one or two of his posts knows his political ideology.

Nice try. I'm not biting.
 

Acct2000

Connoisseur - Moderator
You are misinformed.

I am willing to admit bad behavior.

I am unwilling to accept that all bad behavior is equal.
No one who has seen you post for more than a day or two will agree with that. I'm not biting. (for either of you - - - you really don't think we see most of what you post?????)

Sigh. Nice try.
 

herfitup

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
You think that the ovation and the roaring and cheering was a mature reception?
It just showed how starve the US is for any real leadership.

We don't have a functional independent government anymore. We have a House that can only pass what the Senate and President will allow. It was good to see the House stand up for something.
 

vpkozel

Super Member
I agree in this instance. He shouldn't have issued a red line the first place, but once in place...and I hated hearing people in his Admin at the time publicly air different points of view and say things like, "Well, if we were to strike against Syria, maybe we'd only strike against this target at this time on that day and not do anything serious." Jesus. First, shut up. Hem and haw, but keep it classified. Second, if you're going to strike, make it hurt.
I agree with this. I have told both of my sons (and I would have told my daughters the same thing if I had any). Don't fight, it is wrong.

But, if you do decide to fight, don't wade in. Throw the best first punch you can.

The same thing can be said for countries.
 

SG_67

Connoisseur
^ As quaint as the notion may sound, a countries prestige still matters and the inability or unwillingness to a leader to make good on a promise damages that prestige and in turn gives the appearance that said country cannot be trusted or depended upon.

I don't think this was a calculus that OBH considered when drawing his red line. Another mark of an amateur.
 

Chouan

Honors Member
It just showed how starve the US is for any real leadership.
How? By cheering the leader of a pariah state that US taxpayers prop up?

We don't have a functional independent government anymore. We have a House that can only pass what the Senate and President will allow. It was good to see the House stand up for something.
What, anything? As an outsider I found the performance cringe-worthy; that the Legislators of a great Nation should have behaved publicly in such a ridiculous way was an embarrassment! Even if the recipient of such an ovation was worthy of it, it was still a ridiculous performance, especially as it was obviously deliberately calculated to undermine the Head of State. Such a deliberate partisan performance shows indeed that there is a serious problem in the current government.
 
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