Murray's Reds

cglex

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
Where could you have Reds made in the USA these days and sell them at a price people are willing to pay? Or at least that I am willing to pay? I only buy Bill's khakis because the cheaper alternatives don't cut it. Quite frankly, I wish someone in China would clone Bill's M2 and sell them for less. I really hate paying that much for khakis Fortunately, my last pair of Murray's do cut it, weren't made here and they cost less than Bills khakis.
 

JakeLA

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
Where could you have Reds made in the USA these days and sell them at a price people are willing to pay? Or at least that I am willing to pay? I only buy Bill's khakis because the cheaper alternatives don't cut it. Quite frankly, I wish someone in China would clone Bill's M2 and sell them for less. I really hate paying that much for khakis Fortunately, my last pair of Murray's do cut it, weren't made here and they cost less than Bills khakis.

American Apparel makes cotton twill pants for under $60 from a factory in downtown L.A., and Pointer makes jeans from a factory in Tennessee for $30, so it's possible. Not that I would wear either AA pants or Pointer jeans, I'm just sayin'.

I'd feel a lot better buying stuff made in China if I knew the conditions of the factory. I know there are factories over there that are indistinguishable from factories in the U.S. and that treat their employees very well, but there are also plenty of horrible sweatshops.
 

Danny

Super Member
I have the Nobby Shop reds and they are nice, made by Berle I believe. The pockets are 1/4", but the fabric is nice and heavy. Not super heavy canvas, but fairly heavy. I see that Press is offering some reds this year, those are bound to be USA made, perhaps by Berle as well.
 

Youngster

Senior Member
American Apparel makes cotton twill pants for under $60 from a factory in downtown L.A., and Pointer makes jeans from a factory in Tennessee for $30, so it's possible. Not that I would wear either AA pants or Pointer jeans, I'm just sayin'.

I'd feel a lot better buying stuff made in China if I knew the conditions of the factory. I know there are factories over there that are indistinguishable from factories in the U.S. and that treat their employees very well, but there are also plenty of horrible sweatshops.

I have stuff from both Pointer and AA. While AA is inconsistent and overpriced, Pointer is an amazing value. Do not speak ill of it.
 

The Rambler

Honors Member
Alas, even with the old and trusted brands that we have embraced during our never ending quest for authenticity and, perhaps, the allure of the good old days, it seems we cannot put our faith in the continued promise of "made in America." All too often, with so many of our favorite brands, made in America has evolved to "made in China!" As perhaps an extreme example of such betrayal, after thirty-one years of service in the USAF/USAFR, I retired on 30 April 1999. A couple of months ago, I was dusting a USAF Officers Saber, mounted on a walnut plaque, that was presented to me on that occasion. After eleven years of that sucker hanging on the wall in my study, I discovered a small inscription at the base of the blade (where it meets the hand-guard), "made in China. Thirty-one years of service to the good old USA and they went on the cheap and presented me with a pig-sticker that was made in China...the ultimate betrayal (LOL)! :eek:

Thans for sharing that one, Eagle. I wonder if we have any swordmakers in the US?
 

eagle2250

Connoisseur/Curmudgeon Emeritus - Moderator
This is worse than women in submarines!!

Thans for sharing that one, Eagle. I wonder if we have any swordmakers in the US?

LOL. I'm not sure if women assigned on our "Boomer" submarines is a bad thing or not. The USAF has had women serving on their ICBM launch crews since early 1980 and they haven't blown anything up yet:)devil:). Actually they have acquitted themselves quite admirably, with at least one of them rising to the point of commanding a Missile Wing. However, it does seem ironic that I spent a good portion of my professional life with the PRC in my "gun sights" and had that service commemorated with a gift that was made by them! :crazy:

I don't know if anyone in the US manufacturers USAF officers sabers but, after discovering this offense against me(exaggerated for effect;)), did find out that Solingen in Germany makes them...at a higher cost! :eek: I guess in the final analysis, it doesnt really matter. In a few years the Chinese will have bought and paid for us anyway! :eek:
 

oldominion

New Member
Well my primary concern was not so much that they were made in China but that the pants felt and looked substantially lighter and different than the old ones which were made in USA....Point being that if they're made in China and feel/look the same I'm absolutely fine with it. THis is not so much a lament as it is a question for the larger argument, to wit: If something is made in China (or Taiwan or El Salvador) is it automatically of lower quality than before its outsourcing? Or, more subjectively, Why does it seem that when a product is outsourced the materials are often altered, presumably as part of the profiteering?

Why couldn't Murray's (for example) send the same fabric to China and have the same pants made?

I count myself as part of the group whose found that the latest LLBean Signature stuff (the Bluchers) even while made in El Sal appear to be made of highish grade leather not too different from the US Bluchers of my youth, so I'm puzzled as to why, in my experience, outsourcing alters so much of what I frequently have loved about a product.

Food for thought on this hot Saturday afternoon.
 

Youngster

Senior Member
The real question should be "is the price that I pay commensurate with the production costs" if, indexed for inflation, china made reds cost about the same as US made reds, and production costs are half as much in china, then more profit is being made while you get the same deal. If this is the case, we are being over charged to the detriment of our economy. If this outsourcing has been accompanied by a decline in quality (as it often has) then the consumer is getting really screwed.
I saw someone had posted a chart showing that when indexed for inflation, LL Bean items have cost about the same since the company was founded, while the quality has declined. If anyone has that chart, I would like it posted. IF anyone has old ads for reds, we may be able to figure how the cost has changed, and see how screwed we are getting.
 

Youngster

Senior Member
Maybe someone knows better than I, but it seems that the adjusted price has actually increased since 93. The equivalent for 09 would be about $55 after inflation, and median income has not changed significantly. However, given that America has seen a rise in 90/10 income distribution (richer rich folk and poorer poor folk) I would guess that Murray's consumer bases has enlarged, mostly swelling with nouveau riche aspirational buyers. This should drive up the prices, as demand will increase, while buyer pay a proportionally smaller percentage of their income per purchase. Furthermore, one could likely blame these new buyers for the decline in quality- if they cannot tell the difference, and do not remember the old product, Murray can reduce quality and still increase profits.
I'm no expert, however, so don't take my word that this is how it plays out. That said, if we all make sure to voice our displeasure and spread information about inferior products, then companies like Murray's are likely to take notice- as soon as it hurts their profits. So by all means, treat them ruthlessly, if you want to have any chance of saving them.
 

Kurt N

Super Member
... median income has not changed significantly.

That doesn't sound right. Near as I can tell, median household incomes in current dollars rose significantly from 1993 to 2009 and in fact outpaced the Consumer Price Index. Here's the data through 2007:



Or did I misunderstand the claim?
 

Youngster

Senior Member
That doesn't sound right. Near as I can tell, median household incomes in current dollars rose significantly from 1993 to 2009 and in fact outpaced the Consumer Price Index. Here's the data through 2007:



Or did I misunderstand the claim?


I may be misremembering, and I was not terribly clear, but it was my understanding that wages have been generally stagnant, while wage inequality has increased. I'll look for a better chart later, but the one that you linked is only for Hispanic households. What we need to look at is percapita income, or average wages.
 

Kurt N

Super Member
I may be misremembering, and I was not terribly clear, but it was my understanding that wages have been generally stagnant, while wage inequality has increased. I'll look for a better chart later, but the one that you linked is only for Hispanic households. What we need to look at is percapita income, or average wages.

Gov tables are never easy reading, but I believe the data is for all races. The phrase "Hispanic origin" shows up because that's a separate variable for ethnicity as opposed to race. In other words, there are white Hispanics and non-white Hispanics, etc. That's why the last table is "Hispanics (of any race)."

Median wages and average wages are two different things, but both have outpaced the CPI so far as I can tell from official stats. If anyone knows different I'd be happy to hear about it.

How well the official stats reflect everyday reality on the ground is of course a separate (and complicated) question.

EDIT: Don't mean to hijack the thread so I'll stop spouting amateur econ. Just trying to get facts straight before concluding that Murray's is evil, is all.
 
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yossarian

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
The OP's impressions match my impressions. I have an older (still darker) pair of Reds that are a much nicer fabric than my newer (5 years old) Reds. The new ones were pre-faded and I don't much care for the material. Interestingly, I ordered 3 Nantucket Red yarmulkes from Murray's and the fabric for those appeared to be the same as my older pant -- much darker and more substantial.
 
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