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Off-Row Made to Measure Savile Row suit reviews! (Photos!)

21K views 50 replies 26 participants last post by  Pipps 
#1 ·
Dear Friends

Thank you to those who have recently asked me about my Savile Row, or rather 'off-Row', made to measure suit experiences. I thought I would get a fresh set of hopefully clearer photos to help you in your research, and in some way attempt to repay the invaluable assistance which this board has already provided to me.

After my own preliminary research of made to measure tailoring some time ago, and some insightful conversations with some of the most knowledgeable members of this forum, I decided to visit Jasper Littman at the Holland and Sherry office at 9 Savile Row.

I commissioned a first suit in a charcoal pinstripe. At this time I was somewhat aware of my own preferences and requirements, but I was also relying on Mr Littman's advice, guidance and tailoring experience. All I did know was that I wanted a suit which was as slim as possible - as the lack of appropriate slim suits available anywhere else was my primary reason for pursuing personal tailoring in the first place. However, Mr Littman slowly helped me to realise that a garment which fits like a second skin would not be a desirable thing at all. He helped me to appreciate the way in which a suit should compliment and balance one's bodily proportions - even that of a slim gentleman. Of course, if you do happen to visit Jasper Littman yourself as a result of this information, then please do mention my name to him!

So I have set out below a number of snapshots of each of the three suits in their chronological order of birth. Also pictured, in each suit photo, and in two of its own photos at the end, is a bespoke shirt made by Sean O'Flynn of Sackville Street. It was the second shirt which has made for me, following the first trial shirt.

I hope these photos might be useful to anyone undertaking their own research. If you have any comments, questions, and especially criticisms, then please let me know. I look forward to your responses.

Thank you for looking.

Charcoal Pinstripe - Holland & Sherry Snowy River collection

Grey Sharkskin - Holland & Sherry Target collection

Blue sharkskin - H Lesser Golden Bale collection

Bespoke Shirt - Sean O'Flynn, Sackville Street
 
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#27 ·
Beautiful suits and shirt! Thank you for sharing the pictures. Seeing you in them wearing a tie creates a complete vision of what these suits are meant to do. I like the pockets--they create a slimming effect. Something we do not see (much) in the U.S. are side vents cut to a proper length. Too often, I see side vents that are too short. The cut in your suits allow them to drape gracefully in the back. You have exquisite taste.
 
#30 ·
Very well made

suit - I really like it.

Maybe the trousers can be sut a bit shorter - but that's my personal preference.

On the waist - i think the bum can be made a bit slimmer - I am sure you have the capacity in your physique - it's just that many English suits are a bit "big bottomed" ))

On the tie - it's a bit thick in the know - maybe something slightly slimmer - OR maybe you can even take this tie and do a smaller knot.

On the shirt - I am not altogether imprssed with the collar style - but it actually looks very Jermyn St.

All in all - great outfit - just do a smaller tie knot.

Andrey
 
#31 ·
Very nice indeed.

Your post states MTM, rather than bespoke. Might I ask about how it was priced relative to Row bespoke? How many fittings did they have you do?

I'd be tempted to give them a try the next time I fly through the UK, but with travel unpredictable, subsequent fittings are always an issue for me with non-traveling tailors.
 
#32 ·
Thank you, gentlemen. :icon_smile:

The third suit is supposed to be of exactly the same bodily dimensions as the second suit. However, for those of you who are familiar with Wensum's manufacturing techniques, their methods are hardly a science, and my opinion, vary significantly in sizes and quality for no apparent reason.

I suppose I am just lucky that the third suit turned out to fall especially well. :eek:
The variance could be cause by Wensum but it could also be caused by your tailor tweaking the suit slightly to try and improve the fit each time.
This is common in perfectionists. You can always ask for them to be adjusted so that they're more uniform I suppose.

I believe this is most likely intended as part of the overall 'balance' which JL sought to achieve. The idea being, to not make the suit too fitted to my upper chest, upper back and shoulders, lest it reveal just what a skinny dweeb I really am! :icon_smile_big:

Do you think it would hurt the balance in any way if the blades at the rear of the shoulders were taken in a little?
I wouldn't do that personally.
Judging by the photos, and by your own admission you are on the skinny side so I imagine that the shoulders of these suits are a little wider than your actual shoulders in order to give you some upper body width.
The down side to that is that there'll be a little extra drape across the shoulder blades.
Taking the drape away would make the back of the shouders narrower than the front so if it were me I'd leave it alone.

Very nice indeed.

Your post states MTM, rather than bespoke. Might I ask about how it was priced relative to Row bespoke? How many fittings did they have you do?
Normally, MTM includes one or two fittings, depending on the customer's shape.
Price wise, the average off-row MTM is about £600 - £800 and the average on row bespoke is about £2500 - £3000.
On row MTM is usually about 15 - 20% more than off-row.

Nice suits by the way Mr Pipps.
Your slim figure has been flattered quite well I think. Nice cut and plenty of shape, that's what we like to see. :icon_smile_wink:
 
#34 ·
Very nice indeed.

Your post states MTM, rather than bespoke. Might I ask about how it was priced relative to Row bespoke? How many fittings did they have you do?

I'd be tempted to give them a try the next time I fly through the UK, but with travel unpredictable, subsequent fittings are always an issue for me with non-traveling tailors.
Fuzzypuppy, Mr Littman is indeed a traveling tailor. Though I'm not sure that he is making trips overseas at this present time. Though if you were in the UK within suitable time-frames, he would surely try to travel to you rather than expect you to journey to Savile Row. It all depends on your own movements to the UK, I suppose.

With respect to the price difference between MTM and bespoke - I hope I would be not be inaccurate in saying that a MTM suit is something like a third of the price of a bespoke suit made in the same fabric. As Bonhamesque says, £800 vs £2,500. Which in my opinion is sizable difference. A significant proportion of which is consumed by the time costs of the extra fittings and hand-work.

However, that said, I understand that Mr Littman is currently working on something which is an even greater step towards a bespoke-quality MTM garment. And I think I may be able to provide some new photographs on this precise topic sometime in the not too distant future!
 
#35 ·
Gentlemen: am I missing something here? The post clearly refers to "off-Row" suits. The only referenced location which could conceivably be characterized as "off-Row" is Sackville Street; Sackville Street, being around the corner from the Row and having once housed a number of legendary tailors who belong unquestionably to the Savile Row story, is not, strictly speaking, off-Row. The term "off-Row" was once used to describe the, shall we say, lesser tailors who occupied premises beyond the Regent Street divide (i.e., Soho).

The "divide" between Row and off-Row tailors became blurred when the likes of the great (IMO) Douglas Heyward took up residence in the more distant reaches of Mayfair.

I have also known the term to be applied to City (of London) tailors, whose cut was quite different from that of the Row tailors.
 
#36 ·
Thank you for the very useful background detail on this subject.

May I ask - what term would you consider more appropriate to describe a suit, or style of tailoring, which is a classic Savile Row cut in substance, but which was not manufactured by hand on Savile Row, and by a tailor who's company has its heritage rooted firmly in Savile Row?
 
#37 ·
The shirt is a knockout, The fit on it is very good in the shoulders and waist. I think it would look a bit better with point collars or a spread that was a bit less spread out. I think the tie has been covered here already, its just out of proportion.

I thought suits 1 and 2 had a near identical cut and they are very conformal in the waist. Overall very nice indeed, I think I like suit #1 the best but I have to agree with whoever thought another 1/4 inch of sleeve length would be good but sometimes its hard to tell in static pictures just how good or bad something really is.

I would call it a win for sure and I would go on and order that same shirt in a narrower spread or a point collar and try it with a thinner tie. maybe even a smaller knot and see what you get for proportions.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Gentlemen: am I missing something here? The post clearly refers to "off-Row" suits. The only referenced location which could conceivably be characterized as "off-Row" is Sackville Street; Sackville Street, being around the corner from the Row and having once housed a number of legendary tailors who belong unquestionably to the Savile Row story, is not, strictly speaking, off-Row. The term "off-Row" was once used to describe the, shall we say, lesser tailors who occupied premises beyond the Regent Street divide (i.e., Soho).

The "divide" between Row and off-Row tailors became blurred when the likes of the great (IMO) Douglas Heyward took up residence in the more distant reaches of Mayfair.

I have also known the term to be applied to City (of London) tailors, whose cut was quite different from that of the Row tailors.
I think your understanding off the term 'Off-Row' differs from most other people's.
The current meaning of the term as I understand it is 'any Savile Row quality tailor that isn't actually situated on the Row itself'.

Everyone knows that the rent on Savile Row is ridiculously high so it's hardly surprising that many of the smaller independent tailors have moved away from there and into the surrounding areas of Soho and Mayfair.
That doesn't stop them from being Savile Row tailors as they continue to cut suits in the SR silhouette and make suits to the same high standards you would expect from the Row.

Personally I would even include people like Edward Sexton who is a Savile Row tailor in every sense but is actually situated in Knightsbridge now.
It includes quite a broad spectrum of tailors that at some point were situated or trained on the Row.
For example there's Anderson & Sheppard who just moved round the corner, ditto Fallen & Harvey.
Then there's people like Sexton who's in SW3 and Heyward who's in Soho.
Plus all the visiting tailors like Mahon, Westmancott and Jasper Littman mentioned in this thread.
 
#39 ·
Gentlemen: am I missing something here? The post clearly refers to "off-Row" suits. The only referenced location which could conceivably be characterized as "off-Row" is Sackville Street; Sackville Street
I agree that Sackvile Street is 'off-Row'; however, Anderson & Sheppard are 'off-Row' in Old Burlington Gardens - this is based on the SRBA definition.

However, I would also include Anthony J Hewitt as 'off-Row', which the SRBA does not.
 
#40 ·
Personally I would even include people like Edward Sexton who is a Savile Row tailor in every sense but is actually situated in Knightsbridge now.
1.75 miles away!

Sexton is a living Savile Row legend and will make Savile Row quality clothing using the same method as on Savile Row; however, can not be called a Savile Row tailor while on Beauchamp Place.
 
#41 ·
1.75 miles away!

Sexton is a living Savile Row legend and will make Savile Row quality clothing using the same method as on Savile Row; however, can not be called a Savile Row tailor while on Beauchamp Place.
You see to me that doesn't make sense.
How can a man be a Savile Row legend but not a Savile Row tailor?
Savile Row is not just a road, it's a style, a philosophy and a construction method. Sexton adheres to all of these.

Anyway I'm not actually calling him a Savile Row tailor I'm calling him an off-Row tailor. ;)
 
#42 ·
You see to me that doesn't make sense.
How can a man be a Savile Row legend but not a Savile Row tailor?
Savile Row is not just a road, it's a style, a philosophy and a construction method. Sexton adheres to all of these.

Anyway I'm not actually calling him a Savile Row tailor I'm calling him an off-Row tailor. ;)
Joe Torre is a Yankees legend, yet manages the Dodgers.

The issue with 'off-Row' is how far does that boundary end. If Sexton opened a shop in Sydney and that was the shop he worked in, would you still call him 'off-Row'?

In my opinion, he should have opened on The Row, but that is another matter.
 
#43 ·
Joe Torre is a Yankees legend, yet manages the Dodgers.

The issue with 'off-Row' is how far does that boundary end. If Sexton opened a shop in Sydney and that was the shop he worked in, would you still call him 'off-Row'?

In my opinion, he should have opened on The Row, but that is another matter.
I knew you'd bring up a football reference.

I wouldn't call Sexton off-Row if he moved to Sydney no, but I don't think it's outrageous to call any tailor that's still in the UK off-Row if they spent some time on the Row.

The 'off' part of 'off-row' doesn't mean 'just off' the Row imo.
It means any tailor who is a proper SR tailor (i.e. they were trained there and worked there for a long time) who has left the Row and is therefore not 'on' it anymore.
 
#45 ·
Mr. Pipps, Three excellent suits. I would agree that from the back the blades look a little loose and the lower back very suppressed. To me this creates a bit of a contradiction, where either the blades should be taken in a bit or the lower back let out, which would compromise the silhouette. I agree with Alex that the work to balance the shoulders is very nice. When I saw the shirt only picture I was shocked at your shoulder angle and how it didn't show on the suits. My only other critique is that the sleeve may be slightly too large in circumference. As a matter of taste it just seems that a slightly more tapered sleeve would match the style of the waist suppression.
 
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