blue suede shoes

Super Member
Earlier today, the pirates who had captured and were holding hostage four Americans killed them without provocation. These people were retired American citizens, members of the Marina Del Rey yacht club, sailing around the world distributing bibles. Anyone have any thoughts?

I have plenty of thouights. It will be a while before I can post because I have to clean up the language as I believe this fourm is "G" rated.
 

eagle2250

Connoisseur/Curmudgeon Emeritus - Moderator
It seems to me, it is time for some payback! I've always been a firm believer in the effectiveness of air strikes. Even the Good book calls for "an eye for an eye" and "a tooth for a tooth!" Retribution is not a new concept.
 

Apatheticviews

Super Member
It seems to me, it is time for some payback! I've always been a firm believer in the effectiveness of air strikes. Even the Good book calls for "an eye for an eye" and "a tooth for a tooth!" Retribution is not a new concept.
Getting the right pirates is just the issue. Unless we want to just go willy nilly into international/sovereign waters taking out pirates for the fun of it.
 

VictorRomeo

Super Member
I Even the Good book calls for "an eye for an eye" and "a tooth for a tooth!" Retribution is not a new concept.
I seem to recall a newer Testament recommending the exact opposite.....

And my thoughts are really simple, anyone floating around these waters in anything but a Naval Destroyer is beyond stupid. Not only did it end dreadfully bad for those poor unfortunate people, it could have been potential fatal for those attempting a rescue. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting these people deserved their fate - anything but in fact. However, you sail around these waters in a small yacht - and it's no secret as to where the danger lies - and bibles or no bibles, these animals are not going to mess about.
 

Pentheos

Elite Member
Just as there was a "no-fly zone" over Iraq for years, there should be a "no-sail zone" off the coast of Somalia. The US Navy makes sure anything that floats doesn't do so for long...anything.
 

Cruiser

Connoisseur
Getting the right pirates is just the issue. Unless we want to just go willy nilly into international/sovereign waters taking out pirates for the fun of it.
What do you mean "right pirates?" A pirate is a pirate and every pirate that isn't killed outright should be hung. International waters don't protect a pirate and as far as sovereign waters, if the nation involved isn't killing them, or at least putting them under the prison for life, then they are advocating piracy which, as far as I'm concerned, makes it an act of war if the pirates are committing their crimes on the high seas.

At some point the world is going to have to step up and say enough is enough. Haven't we already sent the Marines to Tripoli once before to stop piracy? I'm sure they would be more than willing to do it again.

Cruiser
 

blue suede shoes

Super Member
What do you mean "right pirates?" A pirate is a pirate and every pirate that isn't killed outright should be hung. International waters don't protect a pirate and as far as sovereign waters, if the nation involved isn't killing them, or at least putting them under the prison for life, then they are advocating piracy which, as far as I'm concerned, makes it an act of war if the pirates are committing their crimes on the high seas.

At some point the world is going to have to step up and say enough is enough. Haven't we already sent the Marines to Tripoli once before to stop piracy? I'm sure they would be more than willing to do it again.

Cruiser

Cruiser, you know your stuff!!

No matter how one looks at it, this is an act of war!! This is one of the many things about this incident that has me boiling mad; it is an act of war and the news media and even the White House/Congress has paid very little attention to it!! When are our leaders going to wake up??!! I like the way Obama and Hilary have handled the Mid-East/North Africa crisis so far (talk nicely as little as possible and do nothing), but this is an unprovoked attack on our countrymen in international waters which needs to be dealt with immediately.
 

Apatheticviews

Super Member
What do you mean "right pirates?" A pirate is a pirate and every pirate that isn't killed outright should be hung. International waters don't protect a pirate and as far as sovereign waters, if the nation involved isn't killing them, or at least putting them under the prison for life, then they are advocating piracy which, as far as I'm concerned, makes it an act of war if the pirates are committing their crimes on the high seas.

At some point the world is going to have to step up and say enough is enough. Haven't we already sent the Marines to Tripoli once before to stop piracy? I'm sure they would be more than willing to do it again.

Cruiser
What is this, the 17/1800s? I agree that a pirate is a pirate, and should be captured, tried, and sentenced according to the laws of the nation they violated (or international laws). Applying the death sentence to "Armed Theft at Sea" is actually a little overboard. US law sets the punishment at "Life in Prison."

Now don't get me wrong, if one of the bastards gets killed while committing the act, he had it coming.

But as for the US sending troops. We've done it before, and we do it NOW (specifically around the Horn of Africa), as part of our Maritime missions in that region.
 

VictorRomeo

Super Member
You obviously don't know your stuff - these pirate hail from Somalia and Somalia is a failed state with no national government. What's next - the War On Piracy? Well we all know how the WoT is going - and the resources needed to do so. You think Afghanistan is bad? A land invasion would prove impossible. That's why it hasn't already happened - and won't. I know there are those of a neocon persuasion that would like to see a few nukes dropped on Somalia and leave it at that. But then you have a population that is massively poor and starved of the resources needed to survive. Piracy is managed by regional (coastal) warlords and in the same way we've in the West not been able to wipe out our own problems with organised crime, the same applies to piracy. Declaring war on a failed nation such as Somalia is abhorrent.
 

Apatheticviews

Super Member
Cruiser, you know your stuff!!

No matter how one looks at it, this is an act of war!! This is one of the many things about this incident that has me boiling mad; it is an act of war and the news media and even the White House/Congress has paid very little attention to it!! When are our leaders going to wake up??!! I like the way Obama and Hilary have handled the Mid-East/North Africa crisis so far (talk nicely as little as possible and do nothing), but this is an unprovoked attack on our countrymen in international waters which needs to be dealt with immediately.
It's not an act of war. An act of war assumes that it is a sovereign nation conducting the attacks (vice individual profiteers). Even if the "host" nation is not doing anything about the issue, doesn't make it an act of war. it just means they aren't doing anything. Maybe because that host government isn't capable of doing anything. With Somalia, it's because there is no real government. They are just ill equipped to handle the situation.

So if we can't declare war on Somalia, who do we declare war on? Piracy? Sounds about as effective as declaring war on Terrorism, or Drugs.

However we do patrol the waters, and we do what we can to deter the practice, however we can't stop people from grabbing a boat and a gun in a third world nation and going after unarmed people within their reach.
 

nosajwols

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
There have been some issues (beyond my understanding) where captured pirates had to be released due to "International Law." I have heard rumours of the Russian Navy releasing their captured pirates in their little boats in the middle of the Indian Ocean, in accordance with the release rules....

Aside from this the only easy solutions I see are (they all cost money of course):

-WW2 style convoys through the region.
-Mandate armed security forces on every boat passing through the region.
-Naval blockade of the entire coast (easier said than done).

None of these address the core issues of course, just makes the piracy more difficult and less profitable.
 

eagle2250

Connoisseur/Curmudgeon Emeritus - Moderator
Air strikes against the pirates mainland operating bases would certainly put a damper on their enthusiasm for their foul craft! Make their costs of ongoing operations too high and, possibly, provide an incentive for these Somali nere-do-wells to find other work.
 

Cruiser

Connoisseur
these pirate hail from Somalia and Somalia is a failed state with no national government.
OK, then we needn't concern ourselves with any issues of sovereign territory. We can just ignore that and go directly after the warlords who are profiting from these crimes. It was essentially the Muslim warlords that we went after in 1805 when we landed Marines on the Barbary Coast to stop the piracy back then.

Cruiser
 

Apatheticviews

Super Member
There have been some issues (beyond my understanding) where captured pirates had to be released due to "International Law."
One of the original issues that fell under this category was that foreign pirates could claim refugee status in Britain, if they had reasonable fear of a death sentence in their home country. It's not so much "international Law" but conflicts between the enforcing nation's laws and those of the home country.

Using the US as an example. Piracy isn't a capitol offense (for us), but it may be treated as such elsewhere.
 

Mike Petrik

Honors Member
OK, then we needn't concern ourselves with any issues of sovereign territory. We can just ignore that and go directly after the warlords who are profiting from these crimes. It was essentially the Muslim warlords that we went after in 1805 when we landed Marines on the Barbary Coast to stop the piracy back then.

Cruiser
I don't think the comparison to the Barbary pirates is apt.

First, the Barbary coast is northern Africa, while Somalia is western Africa;
Second, our president then was Thomas Jefferson; he is dead now;
Third, we were a small and rather insignificant nation then, whereas today we are the most powerful in the history of the world;
Fourth, the Barbary pirates were Muslims, whereas the Somali pirates are Muslims;
Fifth, the Barbary pirates allowed us to pay tribute to avoid ransom, whereas the Somali pirates haven't thought of that;
Sixth, the Barbary pirates didn't waste their time with missionaries;
Seventh, the Barbary pirates were honoring their ancient customs, whereas the Somali pirates are innovators; and
Eighth, our flag on our ships had way fewer stars back then.
 
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VictorRomeo

Super Member
OK, then we needn't concern ourselves with any issues of sovereign territory. We can just ignore that and go directly after the warlords who are profiting from these crimes. It was essentially the Muslim warlords that we went after in 1805 when we landed Marines on the Barbary Coast to stop the piracy back then.

Cruiser
Now you have it. Take out the brains of the operation in such a way that there's no chance of recovery. Hit them as hard as is possible but also make sure that we work to help rebuild the country. You might be surprised to learn that the transitional government there right now have actually done quite a good job at fighting piracy there - especially with the lack of resources at their disposal.

I visited Mogadishu about four years ago and the place is a mess. I was not able to leave our compound and that was based in the grounds of a heavily protected airport. Crazy place.
 
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