Alexander Kabbaz

Tech and Business Advice Guru
I have received a significant number of requests lately for information regarding the high yarn number bargain 200's shirtings now available on the market, notably from Turkey.

The major European weavers, Alumo of Switzerland and Albini of Italy (Thomas Mason, DJ Anderson), use exclusively Egyptian grown Giza 45 cotton fibers in their weaving of the 140, 160, 170, 180, 200, and 240 yarn number shirt fabrics. Giza 45 has long been the highest standard in cotton. This Extra Long Staple features strong, fine, silky fibers in excess of 1.25" in length. The fibers are extremely smooth and exhibit very little nap, or "fuzz". Giza 45 is extremely stable and lends itself readily to fine spinning and finishing. Raw material cost for this precious fiber ranges from USD $4.50 to $5.00 per pound.

The bargain cloths, by contrast, are woven of Chinese E.L.S. cotton. The Chinese fibers are less stable and have three times the nap of Giza 45. This yields a much fuzzier and harder to spin yarn. It does not take to the finishing processes anywhere near as well as the Egyptian variety. Perhaps the greatest indicator of quality is the contrast in price. The best of the Chinese E.L.S. raw cotton sells for USD $1.30 per pound.

Although these fabrics may both feel similar when new, the higher nap and poorer stability of the Chinese-grown, Turkish-woven cloth will deteriorate much more quickly. The 3x greater nap of the Chinese cotton will also make it much more prone to pilling.

Couple this with the much faster speeds at which the bargain cloths are woven and the difference becomes even greater. As I have detailed previously, most Swiss and Italian weavers aim for 3,000 meters-per-day per-loom on the high yarn number fabrics. The bargain cloths are run as fast as 25,000 meters-per-day. The higher loom speed causes microscopic fractures in the yarns during weaving. Thought a new shirt will not show the difference, as laundering takes place these microscopic fractures enlarge causing the fabric much more rapid deterioration.

For a more complete discussion of shirt fabrics, click on the picture below.


 

tiealign

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
Thanks for sharing Alex. Can you tell a difference betwen the fabrics when they are new since the cheaper fabric is fuzzier?
 

Alexander Kabbaz

Tech and Business Advice Guru
Thanks for sharing Alex. Can you tell a difference betwen the fabrics when they are new since the cheaper fabric is fuzzier?
Can I? Given my occupation, I certainly hope so! :icon_smile_wink:

I doubt any but the most experienced wearer of these fabrics could discern the difference when the shirt is new. After a dozen washes, Mickey Mouse could tell the difference. At least, when he's not busy voting in Canton, Ohio. :icon_smile:
 

Ay329

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
How about Corduroy shirt fabric?

What weight and wale of Corduroy is available for the bespoke consumer out there

What are your thoughts on respectable Corduroy?

If my bespoke shirt maker doesn't have access to Corduroy...can you point me to the right direction where I can buy it...preferably with some type of viewing online?

Thank you in advance.
 

Sator

Honors Member
I have received a significant number of requests lately for information regarding the high yarn number bargain 200's shirtings now available on the market, notably from Turkey.

Perhaps the greatest indicator of quality is the contrast in price. The best of the Chinese E.L.S. raw cotton sells for USD $1.30 per pound.
I can't believe that people are PMing Alex to ask the obvious: if it looks too good to be true etc...

So who is sending out the spam about the 200's Chinese stuff? Jantzen I presume.
 

Alexander Kabbaz

Tech and Business Advice Guru
How about Corduroy shirt fabric?

What weight and wale of Corduroy is available for the bespoke consumer out there

What are your thoughts on respectable Corduroy?

If my bespoke shirt maker doesn't have access to Corduroy...can you point me to the right direction where I can buy it...preferably with some type of viewing online?

Thank you in advance.
Most good suiting houses will have lightweight corduroy. It is not made by shirting mills.

I can't believe that people are PMing Alex to ask the obvious: if it looks too good to be true etc...
Facts ... schmacts. I live in a country which prefers snake oil to substance. Seems that the only important thing these days is good oratory. But I'll shut up while I'm ahead.
 

Ay329

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
I have purchased snake oil...in the form of $100 price range MTM shirts from U.S. based Honk Kong outlets...from 3 different snake charmers

Most of the fabrics are as Alex described....now they are pilling and falling apart in the interior and exterior collar band...and the french cuffs

Now I just buy bespoke from Freddy V. and ask for his guidance as to the quality of the shirt...none of which have the above mentioned issues

Some of the HK/Chinese cloths have nice striped patterns...to my liking, but unfortunately, as Alex notes in a subtle manner...all that glitters isn't gold :crazy:
 
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Ay329

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
Alex, what is a proper Corduroy shirt weight...if I am able to find a suitable cloth from 3 suit fabric manufacturers say Scabla, H&S, Minnis or Dormeuil?

Keep in mind I live in Los Angeles and don't plan on going out to the snow or high mountain much
 

Alexander Kabbaz

Tech and Business Advice Guru
Alex, what is a proper Corduroy shirt weight...if I am able to find a suitable cloth from 3 suit fabric manufacturers say Scabla, H&S, Minnis or Dormeuil?

Keep in mind I live in Los Angeles and don't plan on going out to the snow or high mountain much
Between 4oz. - 6oz.
 

Shirtmaven

Inactive user
Since my customer base rarely spends over $275 for a shirt. I do not use the turkish 200/2 very often.
I do use the turkish 100/2 120/2 and 140/2. the shirting is decent value and holds up well. the construction is OK. The finish on the fabric is very different then the Italians. they finish with more resins for an ultra smooth hand.

I also work with some fabric made in India. The main mill I work with claims to use ELS in the better constructions. the finish is usually not quite as slick feeling.

Monti is producing almost all of their basic shirtings in India. Just because the swatch book is in italian doesn't mean the fabric speaks Italian.


Just don't let those snake oil salesmen tell you that the 200/2 from Turkey are just as good as those from Italy and switzerland.

Carl
 

pichao

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
thank you!

Thank You, Alex, for a very nice thread.

I did not realise that I was so interested in the technical aspect of cloth making...:icon_smile:
 

gentleman amateur

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
I have received a significant number of requests lately for information regarding the high yarn number bargain 200's shirtings now available on the market, notably from Turkey.

The major European weavers, Alumo of Switzerland and Albini of Italy (Thomas Mason, DJ Anderson), use exclusively Egyptian grown Giza 45 cotton fibers in their weaving of the 140, 160, 170, 180, 200, and 240 yarn number shirt fabrics. Giza 45 has long been the highest standard in cotton. This Extra Long Staple features strong, fine, silky fibers in excess of 1.25" in length. The fibers are extremely smooth and exhibit very little nap, or "fuzz". Giza 45 is extremely stable and lends itself readily to fine spinning and finishing. Raw material cost for this precious fiber ranges from USD $4.50 to $5.00 per pound.

The bargain cloths, by contrast, are woven of Chinese E.L.S. cotton. The Chinese fibers are less stable and have three times the nap of Giza 45. This yields a much fuzzier and harder to spin yarn. It does not take to the finishing processes anywhere near as well as the Egyptian variety. Perhaps the greatest indicator of quality is the contrast in price. The best of the Chinese E.L.S. raw cotton sells for USD $1.30 per pound.

Although these fabrics may both feel similar when new, the higher nap and poorer stability of the Chinese-grown, Turkish-woven cloth will deteriorate much more quickly. The 3x greater nap of the Chinese cotton will also make it much more prone to pilling.

Couple this with the much faster speeds at which the bargain cloths are woven and the difference becomes even greater. As I have detailed previously, most Swiss and Italian weavers aim for 3,000 meters-per-day per-loom on the high yarn number fabrics. The bargain cloths are run as fast as 25,000 meters-per-day. The higher loom speed causes microscopic fractures in the yarns during weaving. Thought a new shirt will not show the difference, as laundering takes place these microscopic fractures enlarge causing the fabric much more rapid deterioration.

For a more complete discussion of shirt fabrics, click on the picture below.

I've learned a lot from your threads and posts, in particularl the following

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=46233&highlight=Giza

If Giza 45 has long been the highest standard, does this mean that Sea Island has not returned to prominence, yet?
 
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