RogerP
Connoisseur
Suit without a tie? Just say no.
I think we are aligned in that I think of a turtleneck with a suit or sport coat - done right - as very Trad and a great look. If one doesn't like it, that is, of course, fine, but it would be hard to argue, based on the photographic evidence, as you said, that it wasn't part of the Trad cannon in the day.Your post raises some interesting issues, and bears upon some thoughts I've had recently about '70's menswear.
Whether anyone finds a turtleneck with a suit appealing, or not, I believe is very much a matter of personal preference. It's certainly not obligatory, and a man can live his whole life never having worn that combination and be very well dressed. But I think it's a little inaccurate to smear the aesthetic by tying it to '70's disco suits, revolting though they may have been. (I had a colleague who had a suit he wore for business that was supposed to be "Sand" colored, but was, in fact, orange.)
It sounds as if you too also lived through that decade, which I might more accurately term, survived. Certainly, it was one of my least favorite aesthetically. But the turtleneck with country suits, or sport jackets was something I witnessed being worn throughout the '60's and '50's, and judging by photographs and illustrations, was worn for decades before. My opinion is that the common negative reaction to a turtleneck with tailored clothing owes more to its having become fashion and being over-seen, and to its association with ugly clothes, than to the intrinsic value of the aesthetic itself.
And my other thought involves '70's fashion as a whole: Certainly not the best decade for menswear. And at its worse, there are no competitors, but when I run across some old fashion photography of better quality clothing from the era, and compare it to what I see now, it can actually make me nostalgic! And I'm shocked by my reaction! Yes, a surprising amount of better '70's clothing looks a heck of a lot better than what I see parading around Pitiful Uomo or going down Thom Browne's walkways. It's more graceful, better balanced, doesn't make the wearer look ugly, and some of it actually had style, at least compared to a surprising amount of contemporary fashion.
People who didn't experience the decade tend to think of the options available as consisting exclusively of tie-dyed shirts, jeans, platform shoes and fringed jackets. But during the era I was buying business suits at Paul Stuart, Chipp or Wallach's that though they may have been cut with straight-leg trousers and a higher button stance with a wider lapel, are far better looking than what I see being sold as fashion now. And that is true right down the line for all the accoutrements that I wore with them.
So were the '70's a wonderful sartorial decade? Heck no! But look around.
I don't know how traditional the turtleneck with a suit look is. Even with sport coats, it was recognized as more casual. I remember that while it is easier to find pictures of Hollywood people and Rock Stars from that time, people who wore suits, especially in the 70s were a lot more traditional. Most men wore ties with suits in the 70s if they wore them. (This is not counting disco people from the very late 70s. John Travolta's character made the three piece suit - no tie look a fad in the late 70s.)I think we are aligned in that I think of a turtleneck with a suit or sport coat - done right - as very Trad and a great look. If one doesn't like it, that is, of course, fine, but it would be hard to argue, based on the photographic evidence, as you said, that it wasn't part of the Trad cannon in the day.
Also, while I agree that there was absolutely some incredibly great clothing in the 70s, from the Trad stores in particular - and yes they look better than the fashion nonsense of today - what I struggle with is how those small tweaks you mention - lapel width, button stance, etc. - really diminished the suits / sport coats / etc. in the 70s even from the Trad stores.
I bought a blue blazer from a local Trad men store in the 70s (when that, with a white OCBD, grey flannels and penny loafers was my full dressing up wardrobe) and when I finally got rid of it from the back of my closet in the 90s, it was so obviously 70s - lapels in particular, but even the overall cut and lining (if memory serves) - that I was amazed. It was one of those eye-opening moment for me when I started to realize the importance of small details in clothing.
+1000I've always hated this suit-with-no-tie look.
With a green and purple passion.
Uh, it's actually a Chinese collar with a very long history, perhaps Western designer fascination with Che and Mao and so on led to a short 70s/80s popularity in the States but I don't think you can so flippantly dismiss them because some people appropriated them inappropriately...Serious question?
OK, it's warmed-over early '70's designer ersatz.
Not taken seriously 45 years ago, they are in the same class as Thom Browne and cargo shorts.
Oh, wait . . . .
I think they're called Mandarin collars not Mao collars. Perhaps the term was confused with Mao suit?I refer to them as "Banded" collars, popular in the 80's, always the top button would be buttoned, usually worn with a suit.
Never heard the term "mao collar"
What does this mean? "Asian-Asian style of dressing"?I suppose that's the Asian-Asian style of dressing as Arkshriner would say.
Didn't suggest it was anything else. It's the fake versions worn out of context with Western fashions that's ersatz, not the original.Uh, it's actually a Chinese collar with a very long history, perhaps Western designer fascination with Che and Mao and so on led to a short 70s/80s popularity in the States but I don't think you can so flippantly dismiss them because some people appropriated them inappropriately...
I think they're called Mandarin collars not Mao collars. Perhaps the term was confused with Mao suit?
Agreed, would have been better off otherwise.what I struggle with is how those small tweaks you mention - lapel width, button stance, etc. - really diminished the suits / sport coats / etc. in the 70s even from the Trad stores.
In the folly of youth, I confess to wearing a turtleneck with a nice tan corduroy suit for after hours socializing. (Still might if I had one!) And already in the midst of my career I would never have thought of going to do business other than in a suit and tie.no one interviewing for a business or professional position in the 70s would have even thought of being tieless for the interview.
In Chinese they are called 立领 (in simplified characters) or 立領 (in traditional characters) which translates as "upright collar". In Mandarin this is pronounced something like "li ling" and it Cantonese it would be "laap leng".I have no idea what the style is known as in Mandarin, but strongly suspect it may not be called a Mandarin Collar.![]()
I doubt that many in the West will have heard of Dr.Sun Yat Sen, even despite the Jackie Chan film!In Chinese they are called 立领 (in simplified characters) or 立領 (in traditional characters) which translates as "upright collar". In Mandarin this is pronounced something like "li ling" and it Cantonese it would be "laap leng".
It's a style often seen on the Mao suit, which in Chinese is known as 中山装 / 中山裝 which translates as "Sun Yat-sen clothes", so a Sun Yat-sen suit. I don't know how it came to be called a Mao suit but probably because he's one of the few mainland Chinese figures almost everyone in the West has heard of.
Thank you! A proper Mandarin name, rather than a Western "make do."In Chinese they are called 立领 (in simplified characters) or 立領 (in traditional characters) which translates as "upright collar". In Mandarin this is pronounced something like "li ling" and it Cantonese it would be "laap leng".
It's a style often seen on the Mao suit, which in Chinese is known as 中山装 / 中山裝 which translates as "Sun Yat-sen clothes", so a Sun Yat-sen suit. I don't know how it came to be called a Mao suit but probably because he's one of the few mainland Chinese figures almost everyone in the West has heard of.
Give up the struggle. It's not a good look.
Stick to a sport coat and slacks if you want to go without a tie but in favor of "stepping it up" a bit.
The red leads me to the opposite of the blue.This is a very interesting topic because it is something that has come up again and again on this forum and will continue to come up.
Not good.How would AAAC members feel if instead of a long tie, people are opting for something less constricting, such as a Colonel Sanders tie or a bolo tie? I personally think a handkerchief tied around a neck with an open collar shirt (cowboy style) could be pulled off and is perfect for summer as the handkerchief can be put under a running tap and used to cool off your face and then squeezed dry and tied around the neck, again keeping the neck very cool in the hot weather.
+1In my opinion, it all depends on the suit and the shirt.
Well perhaps I should rephrase that. Not interesting because I have any stake in the argument, I like wearing ties and will continue to wear ties, and the various answers to a question like "can I wear this suit without a tie" at this forum can be guessed so it makes it a rather needless question. But it's interesting because it's obviously one of the big fashion questions of the day for men that want to dress well, its frequency on forums showing just how many people are dealing with this question. I'd personally find a discussion of the changes in tie styles more interesting.The red leads me to the opposite of the blue.
I would venture to say that it only implies the work day is over for people who don't really want to wear a tie and associate it with their job and as something they have to wear. I used to like taking off my school uniform when I got home, but I kinda enjoy wearing a tie after the day is over in a bar even when others pull theirs off, because for me it's not associated with "the man" and something I'd rather not be wearing. Plus, then I'd be wearing a suit in a bar without a tie and that's not a look I go for.For those of us who find wearing a tie with a suit the norm, going without is akin to making a statement. For me, there is a number of connotations but mostly it implies that your work day is over and now you are partially disrobed. Perhaps a decent look in a bar or in the club or in the bedroom.