Balfour

Suspended
I'm not sure I understand what this means,
Read the highlighted terms in what I quoted in post 98 (you attempted to redefine what you actually said: original post: 'not caring' what 100 people did; your reply to my response: 'not doing' what 100 people did). Anyway, not sure if you're trying to be deliberately obtuse, so my last reply to you in this thread.
 

dr.butcher

Senior Member
But I don't think that dilemma really translates to the workplace.
Meaning that HR dress code policy and/or the bosses/majority-of-staff should dictate these things? Regrettably they so often do, and it's so often casual, which most people seem to love. To bring this back to the main point of this thread -- the suit without a tie -- I would tend to get around those situations by wearing a "fun" tie, perhaps a vintage art deco one, or a handpainted scene of a hunter shooting a pheasant, which would be inappropriate in a more formal office where a tie is de rigueur. I could even loosen it a little and undo my top button for a more casual look, so no one sees it as over formal and I still get to wear a tie. To steal a line from the NRA ... I'll give them my tie when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.
 

dr.butcher

Senior Member
Read the highlighted terms in what I quoted in post 98 (you attempted to redefine what you actually said: original post: 'not caring' what 100 people did; your reply to my response: 'not doing' what 100 people did). Anyway, not sure if you're trying to be deliberately obtuse, so my last reply to you in this thread.
I'm not trying to be obtuse, but if you're disinterested in the conversation then I guess that's that. I was attempting to clarify (not redefine) possibly vague terms ... (the definition of "care" is rather wide) ... which have obviously been misinterpreted. "Caring" would also affect "doing". I'm basically saying the same thing in as clear terms as I possibly can, I'm not sure where the confusion comes from.
 

Acct2000

Connoisseur - Moderator
I have no idea what the culture is in Hong Kong. In America, you don't want to be the only person who is "overdressing." While if the world was a perfect place, everyone could do what they want, the world is not a perfect place.

I think a lot of the overreaction to people who wear ties today is that people were frequently forced to wear them when they didn't want to in the past. Thus, the tie takes on a lot of authoritarian connotations that may or may not be deserved. In my office, I can wear a tie without it being a big problem, but I still don't do it every day because of the message it would send.
 

Balfour

Suspended
I have no idea what the culture is in Hong Kong. In America, you don't want to be the only person who is "overdressing." While if the world was a perfect place, everyone could do what they want, the world is not a perfect place.

I think a lot of the overreaction to people who wear ties today is that people were frequently forced to wear them when they didn't want to in the past. Thus, the tie takes on a lot of authoritarian connotations that may or may not be deserved. In my office, I can wear a tie without it being a big problem, but I still don't do it every day because of the message it would send.
I agree with the sentiment behind this. I wonder why (as evidenced in threads of this nature) people pour so much effort / mental anguish into trying to 'get around' what is situationally appropriate. What's wrong with dressing at a level of formality that is broadly appropriate to the environment, but with a little more attention to detail, perhaps higher quality kit, etc.?
 

Natty Beau

Senior Member
I agree with the sentiment behind this. I wonder why (as evidenced in threads of this nature) people pour so much effort / mental anguish into trying to 'get around' what is situationally appropriate. What's wrong with dressing at a level of formality that is broadly appropriate to the environment, but with a little more attention to detail, perhaps higher quality kit, etc.?
Well, as you said, it took you a while to get to this point yourself. Perhaps it requires the five stages of grieving first.

I'm sure if I had to give up the suit as my standard mode of day wear, I'd feel a bit put out too.
 
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Acct2000

Connoisseur - Moderator
Also, if no one wears ties, even a "fun tie" is off the norm.

People who don't have the level of interest AAAC posters don't make some of these distinctions.
 
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dr.butcher

Senior Member
I have no idea what the culture is in Hong Kong. In America, you don't want to be the only person who is "overdressing." While if the world was a perfect place, everyone could do what they want, the world is not a perfect place.

I think a lot of the overreaction to people who wear ties today is that people were frequently forced to wear them when they didn't want to in the past. Thus, the tie takes on a lot of authoritarian connotations that may or may not be deserved. In my office, I can wear a tie without it being a big problem, but I still don't do it every day because of the message it would send.
I've never really been in a situation where I was forced to wear a tie but if I was I might have a different attitude towards them. From what I hear of the corporate culture in America it's a world of difference from Hong Kong, or even Australia. Plus, I'm a writer, that may give me some leeway. I'm not a lawyer or a banker or a regional manager in charge of a large group of people or anything like that. I wear a tie every day and I have enough that I rarely repeat. I personally don't need any reasons to wear a tie, but I'd fight to keep it on if for no other reason than to object to being told I shouldn't wear one because it's no longer the norm and everyone wants me to wear something casual because it would make them all feel a lot more comfortable. One of these days the "suits" are going to turn the tie into a symbol of rebellion.

Also, if no one wears ties, even a "fun tie" is off the norm.

People who don't have the level of interest AAAC posters do don't make some of these distinctions.
I don't disagree in principle. But it's not about the tie, it's about the perceived level of formality. If you come off as casual as them, with all your quirks and differences, then nothing will stand out. If you don't wear a tie, but still look very formal, then you'll stand out. "Fun ties", for lack of a better phrase, don't really exude the same stiffness that is usually associated with ties. Something like a peek-a-boo tie might even been seen by some as giving the finger (again for lack of a better phrase) to what the tie stands for.
 

Acct2000

Connoisseur - Moderator
In America, there is still that distinction. Wearing a neckerchief or something like that is even more "stick out like a sore thumb"-ish than a tie. A novelty tie is still a tie.

At least in America, most people don't make the distinction. If your workplace is solidly non-tie, you don't want to wear neckerchiefs, ascots, ties, "fun" ties or anything that looks like a tie. Some won't care, but many will think you choose not to be part of the group.

As a writer who works independently, you have a situation most people who work for a company don't have and have a lot more leeway. An American working for a company usually does not.
 

JLibourel

Honors Member and King Fop
In America, there is still that distinction. Wearing a neckerchief or something like that is even more "stick out like a sore thumb"-ish than a tie. A novelty tie is still a tie.
During the final years of my career, I commonly wore coat and tie to my office. Sometimes I varied it with an ascot. Nobody else did. However, I dislike that term "stick out like a sore thumb." A sore thumb is an ugly thing. Rather, I stuck out like an elegant peacock amidst a flock of squalid sparrows and starlings! On reflection, that may be unfair of me to say, as some of the women did dress well. However, the customary apparel of many of the men was nothing I would wear in public or private, not even to wash to car!
 

Acct2000

Connoisseur - Moderator
The phrase "sore thumb" may have been unfortunate. However, because of what you did for your career and how respected and noted you were as a writer, you had earned a status that most don't earn. You could have worn whatever you wanted because of your renown in your field.

My point that people who aren't comfortable with people who, in their opinion, overdress, don't make distinctions between regular ties, "fun" ties, ascots or neckerchiefs. They just note that you don't fit in. If you do not have the kind of national renown in your field that you enjoyed, you can put yourself at risk of backbiting or just not being at the heart of what is going on if you choose to dress and/or conduct yourself in ways that defy the norm.

Because of your status in your industry, you earned an exemption that most don't have.

I wear jackets and/or ties to work one to three times per week. If it was not tolerated in our small office, I would not even think about it unless I had an important meeting.
 

dr.butcher

Senior Member
As a writer who works independently, you have a situation most people who work for a company don't have and have a lot more leeway. An American working for a company usually does not.
I said writer not independent. I used to work freelance, but now I do corporate affairs in a large office for one of Hong Kong's biggest corporations.
 

dr.butcher

Senior Member
During the final years of my career, I commonly wore coat and tie to my office. Sometimes I varied it with an ascot. Nobody else did. However, I dislike that term "stick out like a sore thumb." A sore thumb is an ugly thing. Rather, I stuck out like an elegant peacock amidst a flock of squalid sparrows and starlings! On reflection, that may be unfair of me to say, as some of the women did dress well. However, the customary apparel of many of the men was nothing I would wear in public or private, not even to wash to car!
+1.

What do you wear to wash your car?
 

Acct2000

Connoisseur - Moderator
I said writer not independent. I used to work freelance, but now I do corporate affairs in a large office for one of Hong Kong's biggest corporations.
I suppose it's your choice whether or not to fit in. Being a writer may give you more leeway.

For most people, not fitting in is a mistake.
 
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