epl0517

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
Shoemakers have a variety of terms to describe alternative welting techniques, especially those intended to enhance waterproofness. Crockett and Jones say that some of their shoes have a storm welt; Alden uses the term "pre-stitched reverse welt."

From what I gather, there are two variations of the welts that enhance waterproofness: the split welt and the reverse welt. The main idea, I think is the same: that a part of the welt extends around the outer base of the vamp, providing a barrier to water that would enter the shoe where the welt attaches to the vamp. But, as I understand, the split welt also has a hidden component.

So my main questions are: can a reverse and split welt be distinguished by examining the finished shoe; and, does it matter, that is, does either provide better protection than the other?

I also wondered if anyone knows about Alden's so-called "pre-stitched reverse welt". A salesperson represented to me that this species is made to appear like a reverse welt, but actually provides no functional advantage. Salepersons get things wrong often enough, but they rarely make things seem less desirable than they really are. Does anyone have information about this?

ASKANDY UPDATE: Looking for more information on welts? Check out our Best Shoe Welts article to learn everything you wanted to know about shoe welts!
 
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Teacher

Honors Member
Split welt refers to any welt with the characteristic portion that sticks up. Strictly speaking, a true storm welt is one whose top portion has been stitched directly to the upper. What Allen Edmonds calls a split reverse welt is not a storm welt, as it is not stitched directly to the upper; it is really more or less for appearance. Some companies also call this a fudge welt.
 

robin

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
I also wondered if anyone knows about Alden's so-called "pre-stitched reverse welt". A salesperson represented to me that this species is made to appear like a reverse welt, but actually provides no functional advantage. Salepersons get things wrong often enough, but they rarely make things seem less desirable than they really are. Does anyone have information about this?
This is correct - Alden's "storm welt" is only for looks.
 

tricker

New Member
Split welt refers to any welt with the characteristic portion that sticks up. Strictly speaking, a true storm welt is one whose top portion has been stitched directly to the upper. What Allen Edmonds calls a split reverse welt is not a storm welt, as it is not stitched directly to the upper; it is really more or less for appearance. Some companies also call this a fudge welt.
I sew welts on, have done for nearly 15 years, every variety there is, at Lotus, Trickers and Lobbs.

The two welts you are discussing are in fact one in the same, its true name is a split-reverse storm welt, so called because it is split down the centre from one edge to the middle, and you split this half apart and one side is sewn to the upper, on the underside of the shoe and the reverse side is bent back the other way to lie up the shoe, with the remaining unsplit portion extending outwards as the welt.

Sometimes welt makers produce fancy variations, such as pre-stitched storm and split-reverse storm welts, these welts come with stitching already on them, which serves no purpose at all other than to look a bit fancy, maybe to provide 2 rows of stitching and to give the impression that the part above the sole is stitched to the upper, as a dr. marten is.

Im afraid there is no such thing as a fudge welt, it is the stitching attaching the welt to the sole that is 'fudge stitched', which hides it in a shallow slit around the welt, a lot of C&J shoes have this method of sole stitching.

The second type of storm welt has a simple bead, it is rounded, an example of this is what you find on a Caterpillar work boot, except they use rubber welt.

So when you are looking at finished shoes, a standard storm welt is the beaded rounded one, and the split-reverse is squared and extends further up the shoe from the welt, although some companies trim their split reverse before they edge trim the sole, so it can be quite small also.

Neither will protect your feet from the rain, there is only one way to do this, and thats the method used to make golf shoes, you have to latex the stitching inside the insole along the inseam, its the only way to keep the water out !

So there you go, now you can inform the salespersons when they get it wrong.
 

Franko

Senior Member
Neither will protect your feet from the rain, there is only one way to do this, and thats the method used to make golf shoes, you have to latex the stitching inside the insole along the inseam, its the only way to keep the water out !

Tricker.
Are there any dress or formal shoes that are given this treatment ?
is there some downside that prohibits making a quality shoe truly rainproof?
Presumably, if there wasn't, all the makers would offer it?
Thanks for posting BTW.

Cheers,
F.
 

tricker

New Member
Its very unusual for any shoe apart from a golf shoe to be given this treatment, theres no downside to it at all, it could be done, but isnt because it slows the process down. If the water gets between the welt and upper it can absorb through the seam and make your socks a bit damp, but i think you would have to be in quite a wet environment or walk through quite a few puddles before this happened, but it does get in there, and is the reason why all threads used to attach welts are treated with wax to prevent them from rotting from water damage, including sweat!

Basically the water will get between the upper and welt and make its way through this seam into the insole cavity, which is filled with cork, from here it can find a way to get from insole cavity back through the rib which is fabric and card that the welt and upper is sewn to, then once its through the rib it can get between the insole and inner lining and get your toes wet, if we latex the rib it gets trapped under the insole and wont touch your socks!

Hand made, hand sewn MTO and bespokes generally dont suffer from this problem because there is no rib, the upper and welt are sewn directly to the leather insole, however i wouldnt go standing in puddles to find out, but we have made bespoke golf shoes and never had a complaint about leaks.
 

Teacher

Honors Member
I sew welts on, have done for nearly 15 years, every variety there is, at Lotus, Trickers and Lobbs.

The two welts you are discussing are in fact one in the same, its true name is a split-reverse storm welt, so called because it is split down the centre from one edge to the middle, and you split this half apart and one side is sewn to the upper, on the underside of the shoe and the reverse side is bent back the other way to lie up the shoe, with the remaining unsplit portion extending outwards as the welt.

Sometimes welt makers produce fancy variations, such as pre-stitched storm and split-reverse storm welts, these welts come with stitching already on them, which serves no purpose at all other than to look a bit fancy, maybe to provide 2 rows of stitching and to give the impression that the part above the sole is stitched to the upper, as a dr. marten is.

Im afraid there is no such thing as a fudge welt, it is the stitching attaching the welt to the sole that is 'fudge stitched', which hides it in a shallow slit around the welt, a lot of C&J shoes have this method of sole stitching.

The second type of storm welt has a simple bead, it is rounded, an example of this is what you find on a Caterpillar work boot, except they use rubber welt.

So when you are looking at finished shoes, a standard storm welt is the beaded rounded one, and the split-reverse is squared and extends further up the shoe from the welt, although some companies trim their split reverse before they edge trim the sole, so it can be quite small also.

Neither will protect your feet from the rain, there is only one way to do this, and thats the method used to make golf shoes, you have to latex the stitching inside the insole along the inseam, its the only way to keep the water out !

So there you go, now you can inform the salespersons when they get it wrong.
Yes, I know how they're made. This must be just a matter of terminology, but the way these terms have always been used by me and everyone I've known (including my cobbler, who along with his brother make custom cowboy and motorcycle boots) is this: if the split and reversed portion is sewn directly to the uppers, it's called a storm welt; if it isn't, it's just called a split reverse or reverse welt. I know that they're functionally the same, but aesthetically they are not. As for "fudge welt," that is a term used by a manufacturer (Alden?). I've made to claims as to functionality.
 

tricker

New Member
well thats the thing , its not actually possible to stitch the reversed part of the welt to the upper, the closest thing to this in shoemaking is when you have a cement lasted shoe, not welted, and the sole is stitched through the upper on a special machine, a lot of italian cheaply made shoes have this. A storm welt has been around a lot longer than this machine also.
Im not trying to make anyone look like they are wrong, just giving a fact, a split reverse is a form of storm welt, named because you split and reverse it as you sew it, the original storm welt just has a bead, no split reverse, you can see it in the pdf posted above. Even if there was a way to stitch the reverse to the upper it would offer no more protection than it would unstitched, it would have to be glued to do that, probably why its never been done

https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=79429
post #19, C&J handgrades picture, thats fudge stitching, you can see the slit
 

Teacher

Honors Member
I don't think we're talking about the same thing, strictly speaking. The "storm welt" I'm talking about is shown on page 158 of Vass's book Handmade Shoes for Men (my scanner isn't hooked up so I can't scan the pic). It is not a split reverse welt, but rather a welt sewn on in an L shape, with the L facing outward from the upper and NOT extending underneath the upper. The top row of stitching goes through the upper and the feather, just as a split reverse welt does, but this row of stitching is perfectly visible. As I said before, I'm sure that functionally it's the same as a split-reverse welt (same strength, same procedure for resoling, not waterproof, etc.), but aesthetically and design-wise it's different, hence (I would imagine) the different name.
 

bengal-stripe

Super Member
Marcell Szabo, a shoemaker from Budapest - www.koronya.com
has just posted a video on making a ‘Goiserer welt (by hand)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8CJUJt75FMI

Goiserer is the Austro/Hungarian name for a welt that the Italians frequently call ‘Norvegese’ (Norwegian),
a type of heavy welt that is stitched to the outside of the shoe. In a hand-made shoe they usually employ fancy stitching,
but the same principle can also used on a machine made shoe. Some of the shoes by Alden use that technique.
Check out your ‘Cordovan Long Wing Blucher’ or ‘Cordovan Plain Toe Blucher Oxford’.
There are two rows of stitching visible from the outside: one that attaches the welt to the upper and another one that attaches the welt to the sole.


P.S. Teacher, I think our postings have overlapped. I believe, that is what you are talking about.
 
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tricker

New Member
I don't think we're talking about the same thing, strictly speaking. The "storm welt" I'm talking about is shown on page 158 of Vass's book Handmade Shoes for Men (my scanner isn't hooked up so I can't scan the pic). It is not a split reverse welt, but rather a welt sewn on in an L shape, with the L facing outward from the upper and NOT extending underneath the upper. The top row of stitching goes through the upper and the feather, just as a split reverse welt does, but this row of stitching is perfectly visible. As I said before, I'm sure that functionally it's the same as a split-reverse welt (same strength, same procedure for resoling, not waterproof, etc.), but aesthetically and design-wise it's different, hence (I would imagine) the different name.
handmade shoes, hand sewn, you cant do this on a machine, that type of shoe has a specific name, like a veldt but not a veldted shoe, were not talking about the same thing really, youre right, bengal-stripe is on the ball with this style it seems.
 

Moondance

Inactive user
Marcell Szabo, a shoemaker from Budapest - www.koronya.com
has just posted a video on making a ‘Goiserer welt (by hand)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8CJUJt75FMI

Goiserer is the Austro/Hungarian name for a welt that the Italians frequently call ‘Norvegese’ (Norwegian),
a type of heavy welt that is stitched to the outside of the shoe. In a hand-made shoe they usually employ fancy stitching,
but the same principle can also used on a machine made shoe. Some of the shoes by Alden use that technique.
Check out your ‘Cordovan Long Wing Blucher’ or ‘Cordovan Plain Toe Blucher Oxford’.
There are two rows of stitching visible from the outside: one that attaches the welt to the upper and another one that attaches the welt to the sole.


P.S. Teacher, I think our postings have overlapped. I believe, that is what you are talking about.
I have lurked on AAAC for quite some time and I always find Bengal's post to be very informative and accurate.

Thank you very much
 

tmoffatt

Starting Member
Split Reverse Welt and Veldt?

I realize that most of this thread is five years old - but it is excellent conversation. Can anyone tell me the difference between split reverse welt and that used in veldtshoen? Thanks.
 

Langham

Honors Member
Veldtschoen

I realize that most of this thread is five years old - but it is excellent conversation. Can anyone tell me the difference between split reverse welt and that used in veldtshoen? Thanks.
On a veldtschoen the upper extends outwards across and on top of the welt, and is separately stitched down and through the sole. Veldtschoen have two layers of upper, the inner of which is sewn onto the welt in the normal way. There is a diagram in the blog below.

The veldtschoen form of construction is the only entirely reliable watertight method. Not many shoes are now made this way, presumably because it is a very time-consuming method, yet the 'army officer' veldtschoen, manufactured by Lotus or George Webb, and more recently by Sargent and Tricker's, used to be almost a staple form of footwear in England.

http://loomstate.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/lotus-veldtschoen-guaranteed-waterproof.html
 
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