Sator

Honors Member
The drape cut, BTW, of A&S was originally intended as a type of "corpulent cut". That's a tailor's polite way of saying a coat cut for a fat chap. The idea was to add extra rolls of excess cloth to the chest to balance out the excess rolls of fat on the waist, thus helping the wearing look more athletic - and failing that, as least more balanced.
 

AdamsSutherland

Super Member
I'm curious about someone with broad shoulders requiring broad and hard shoulders.

I like natural shoulders and "spalla camicia" because my shoulders are broad and muscular enough to fill them out nicely. I don't need any additional padding to emphasize this area.
 

Sator

Honors Member
Shoulder padding is more to correct sloping shoulders. It is a huge internet myth that all they do is make the shoulders look artificially muscular. Muscular men with square shoulders may still need padding around the back of the shoulder because as a result of some areas being built up, others are left too hollow.

There is a lot of anti-structure propaganda around on the internet, with shrill rhetoric that demands the removal of shoulder pads, and gutting of canvas structure in the chest. Why not go all the way and just remove the whole lot and always wear a sloppy shirt jacket? Never mind that this would mean the death of tailoring as we know it, for such shirt jackets are traditionally not regarded as tailored garments but as shirtmaker's garments. Structure in a tailored coat is something that goes all the way back to the 1600's, and it is a huge pity the internet is being used as a medium to try to give it a bad reputation.
 

manton

Arbiter CBDum
The drape cut, BTW, of A&S was originally intended as a type of "corpulent cut". That's a tailor's polite way of saying a coat cut for a fat chap. The idea was to add extra rolls of excess cloth to the chest to balance out the excess rolls of fat on the waist, thus helping the wearing look more athletic - and failing that, as least more balanced.
No, this was not the original intent of the drape cut. It is a potential benefit of the drape cut for certain clients -- I gather you saw the same clip of John Hitchcock talking to Oswald Boeteng that got posted on Style Forum. Note that Hitchcock did not say that this was the origin of drape, because it isn't.

I realize you don't like drape, but why you must persist with this delusional campaign to demonize it, misrepresent it, and just lie about it is beyond me.

Shoulder padding is more to correct sloping shoulders. It is a huge internet myth that all they do is make the shoulders look artificially muscular. Muscular men with square shoulders may still need padding around the back of the shoulder because as a result of some areas being built up, others are left too hollow.

There is a lot of anti-structure propaganda around on the internet, with shrill rhetoric that demands the removal of shoulder pads, and gutting of canvas structure in the chest. Why not go all the way and just remove the whole lot and always wear a sloppy shirt jacket? Never mind that this would mean the death of tailoring as we know it, for such shirt jackets are traditionally not regarded as tailored garments but as shirtmaker's garments. Structure in a tailored coat is something that goes all the way back to the 1600's, and it is a huge pity the internet is being used as a medium to try to give it a bad reputation.
Talk about shrill. You have become the most shrill person on all the forums. You have always been reactionary and eccentric, but you didn't used to be such a damned bore.

Isn't it enough that you like what you like, and other people like what they like? There seems to be room enough for all of us. Yet when people talk about styles you don't like, it is "propaganda." When you start a forum to discuss what you like, that is ... what?

I acutally admire your forum, though I don't read it much. I see it for what it is, an enormous repository of valuable information that might otherwise be forgotten or lost, even if not all of it (maybe not even most of it) pertains to things that I would ever want to wear.

Face it, Sator, the only one in the crusade is you. I think you used to have a sense of humor and irony. Whether you ever did or not, you don't any more and haven't for a long time.

BTW, this is just more straw-manning. You know enough about tailoring to know that drape coats often have shoulder pads (of varing widths and thicknesses) and they always have canvas. Soft tailoring is a skill unto itself, in many ways more difficult than making a structured coat, in which a hard cavas can hide many small fit discrepancies.
 

AdamsSutherland

Super Member
easy Tiger.

I'm not trying to get involved in the preceeding post; however, I'd just like it known that I was sharing my personal opinion, based on my body and my limited experience with jackets...That and I think I have a small-er head in relation to my body so I'm not trying to emphasize this at all.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with hard tailoring or that soft was the only way to go. Additionally, spalla camicia does not mean a shirt jacket, just a shirt shoulder. Just that I personally don't always see the need, not want or preference, to make the broad look broader. I also didn't say that padded shoulders served to make the shoulder look more muscular. Once again, this was just mentioned as it applies to my body.

...I didn't realize things were so testy on this side of the tracks...
 

carpu65

New Member
Unfortunately, I do not have any pictures of Cary Grant wearing Domenico/Guilio and Tommy Caraceni Roma (this branch of Caraceni got started in February or August of 1913, IIRC).

However, there might be pictures of Cary Grant wearing Domenico/Guilio and Tommy Caraceni Roma (which, at the time, was Domenico Caraceni Roma) somewhere on the website for Augusto/Mario Caraceni Milano (this branch of Caraceni got started in February or August of 1943, IIRC). Here is the link for that website below:

http://www.caraceni.com

You might want to just Google A. Caraceni in the event that the link above that I provided does not work.
Is Tyrone Power,not Cary Grant, in the picture.
Cary Grant was not never customer of Caraceni.
 
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Svenn

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
You cannot have one category for an English silhouette and have four for the Italians, there is a big difference between a soft-tailored Anderson & Sheppard suit and a hard-military-cut Dege & Skinner suit.
I'm a newbie at this so I'd very much appreciate if the OP or someone could post examples of these different 'european sihouttes'. Am I correct that the style below is what you would call "hard-military-cut" toryboy? btw no one on SF could identify it, so if anyone has a clue:


 

CuffDaddy

Connoisseur
I'm a newbie at this so I'd very much appreciate if the OP or someone could post examples of these different 'european sihouttes'. Am I correct that the style below is what you would call "hard-military-cut" toryboy? btw no one on SF could identify it, so if anyone has a clue:


I have no idea what that is. From the button up, it does look like a fairly structured jacket, but it's difficult to tell from a manequin photo. But the quarters look to be pretty closed, and rather oddly pointed downward. That may be a result, though, of pinning the jacket to get the fairly dramatic waist suppression shown.

The single button and hacking pockets would suggest an equestrian style, in the Huntsman vein.
 

Xenon

New Member
If memory serves me right this is a Beaman special (infamous). Not even sure he really made this.

I printed this photo long ago as it is the most stunning suit silhouettes I have ever seen anywhere no matter where or who made it

Nothing appears to come close to this level of waist suppression either.

I would also be very interested in categorisation of this suit and what could come close to this in a qulity maker.

I have several Boss suits (I know these are cheap/fused) that are the closest i have seen that have this level of waist supression / hourglass shape but without the hacking pockets.

The hacking pockets really add tremendous elegance.
 
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Svenn

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
If memory serves me right this is a Beaman special (infamous). Not even sure he really made this.

I printed this photo long ago as it is the most stunning suit silhouettes I have ever seen anywhere no matter where or who made it

Nothing appears to come close to this level of waist suppression either.

I would also be very interested in categorisation of this suit and what could come close to this in a qulity maker.

I have several Boss suits (I know these are cheap/fused) that are the closest i have seen that have this level of waist supression / hourglass shape but without the hacking pockets.

The hacking pockets really add tremendous elegance.
It looks like you might be right, I found this old thread by that person:
https://askandyaboutclothes.com/community/showthread.php?t=34520
And the other stuff he made appears to look similar to the above. It kind of detracts from the beauty of the jacket knowing an apparent? criminal designed and made it, but oh well:icon_smile:
 

CuffDaddy

Connoisseur
Nothing appears to come close to this level of waist suppression either.

That's because it would fit very, very few men. At least without the aid of a whale-bone corset. Notice that it's not being worn... it's easy to suppress a manequin's waist!

But you could always find a bespoke maker and commission one like it. Just be prepared to pay, even when it doesn't button. ;)
 

Svenn

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
That's because it would fit very, very few men. At least without the aid of a whale-bone corset. Notice that it's not being worn... it's easy to suppress a manequin's waist!

But you could always find a bespoke maker and commission one like it. Just be prepared to pay, even when it doesn't button. ;)
hmm, i don't think it looks that extreme, does it? my crappy mtm jacket below seems to have about the same waist suppression:

 

Xenon

New Member
Svenn that's not a bad looking suite and the waist suppression looks good. I think it would look better if you didn't button the top button (just the middle).

What make is it? Am I right to assume it is fused?

I actually need this level of suppression and have had all my suites alterred to achieve this with varying degrees of succes but never perfect. There is always some tradeoff at the skirt or back of shoulders.
 

CuffDaddy

Connoisseur
hmm, i don't think it looks that extreme, does it? my crappy mtm jacket below seems to have about the same waist suppression:

"Crap[iness]" has nothing to do with waist suppression. You have a great deal of suppression in your suit. If you like that look, great, but it does look like it's straining a bit at the buttons (especially the top one). But the suit on the left has a similar profile without the jacket being buttoned. It's even more wasp-waisted.
 

Sufferable Fob

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
It strikes me as very robin-breasted and having a high waist-point (or maybe it's the puffed chest that makes it look high).


Reminds me of the 1820-30s :



I always wondered if anyone actually looked like that. It's so incredibly artificial. Fashion plates around undoubtedly exaggerated - but there's always that person that ends up making even the drawings look moderate (I've seen some very "extreme" pictures of women in corsets that were actually kind of disturbing).




The style filtered in from the military, along with the corsets - although this isn't an era I've done a great deal of looking-into.


Being very underweight to the verge of health crisis, I believe I could wear such a silhouette, but I'm not inclined to since I like pretending to be vaguely healthy.
 

Pipps

Super Member
hmm, i don't think it looks that extreme, does it? my crappy mtm jacket below seems to have about the same waist suppression:

There is nothing extreme about the waist suppression of either garment. My own jackets are just as dramatically suppressed, and they fit me perfectly.

The only difference between the two photographs, is that Svenn's jacket has been crafted to fit with that shape as a result of his tailor's skill. The jacket on the manikin has undoubtedly been pinned into shape from the rear.
 
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