The self-outing of another anglo trad

Trimmer

Super Member
quote:Originally posted by Chris H

quote:Originally posted by Rich

All right then, what about Ronnie Scott's? And the Marquee?
Would Alexis Korner's Blues Incorporated be considered a Trad band?

The term 'trad', when used in regard to music in the UK, usually refers to english jazz bands that played in the 'dixieland' style.

Chris

Wasn't it trad, Dad?

Trimmer
 

Rich

Super Member
quote:Originally posted by Chris H

quote:Originally posted by Trimmer
Wasn't it trad, Dad?

Trimmer

That's right, jazz bands like Chris Barber, Kenny Ball or Acker Bilk.

I remember that local British trad jazz bands, the ones that played in pubs, wore jackets and ties (as did people like Alexis Korner, Cyril Davis and Long John Baldry). I don't know whether the jackets were undarted. A lot of punters wore duffle coats or shorty "car coats" I remember. Knitted ties... What did they have on their feet? Chelsea boots came later.
 

Horace

Senior Member
quote:Originally posted by Andersen

This post is occassioned by the recent posts from Russell Street, ChrisH and one or two others , Americans I presume, expressing wonderment that there are some Brits who go in for the trad look.

I think that in this, as in other things, those who are non-native have an advantage of perspective. You probably see the Trad in a way that those who are around it or immersed in it don't. To draw a parallel, one who is not French may often have a perspective on Paris in a way that those who are from there or who have lived their all their lives do not. You see the city in a way (rightly or wrongly) that it's probably impossible for the natives to see. For many a reason.

Anyway -- I say bring on the Anglo-Trads. It's all coming full circle.

Edit: Botany 500 and Gerry Mulligan. Very cool. Whatever happened to Botany 500?
 

Horace

Senior Member
quote:Originally posted by Russell Street

Well I'm loving this!

I found the clothes then the music.
'The look' drove me to seek it out and to discover so many other things on the way - films, jazz, food, Cape Cod, etc.
Apart from my family, ALL the pleasures of my adult life have come from my fascination with Ivy style.
If I hadn't been in Boston shopping I'd never have gone down to the Cape or the Islands...
If I hadn't been going to Freeport to visit Bean's I'd never have stayed in a log cabin by Lake Sebago...
I'd never tasted lobster before I went to these locations...
I had no interest in music (And what a solace I was missing!) before I made the Ivy / Modern Jazz connection and found music that moved me like nothing before (I was always bored by pop & classical).
And it was all always there waiting for me!
All I had to do was to wander around Richmond in my boredom and then talk a walk up Richmond Hill, purely to stretch my legs, and there it all was!
No more clothes from Simpsons & Austin Reed, no more boring shoes from Church.
And look how cool the guys in the shop were!
And look at those 'Skinheads' in there nodding at me & calling me 'Mate' everytime they spoke!
Surely I was the coolest trainee Accountant ever!
I was born in 1950, but my life started in 1971!

I'm an old fool.

Russell

Great post. Esp. the contrast between the Brit stuff in front of you and the American possibilities. Evocative in a way that the other Trad threads haven't been.

Thanks to all you guys...
 

Russell Street

Senior Member
No - Thank you Horace.

I need to be more serious to get what I want out of this forum, I realise. Two of the brains I want to pick are your's & Harris's.
So thank you for 'engaging' with me.

U.S. American Trad is your tradition. It's what your fathers and grendfathers wore.
U.K. American Trad is a rejection of what our fathers & grandfathers wore and a stylistic choice to be different.
We looked around, we could have chosen a French or Italian 'look' (Many did), but a certain cult of Englishmen chose an 'Ivy League look'. Your look.
Added to that is the cult for American music - Jazz, Blues, Soul, R&B of a certain era. Black music.
We, unlike you, went shopping for a way to be different. To express ourselves & not to conform. But to do it in this really subtle way.
Compare English & American clothes and pretty much they are the same fabrics & colours. So my choice to be different from my father lies in the details and the details only.
The hook vent, the lack of darts, the top stitching, etc.
The '3 button rolled to 2' look, with that odd, 'dead' top button hole that bugs the hell out of a 'well dressed Englishman' because he can't understand it. It looks wrong and odd to him because he doesn't know the Ivy tradition & heritage. It looks to him as though someone has taken a good, safe English thing like a blazer or a tweed jacket and F*cked with it. Can you imagine how much that bothers them?
For someone to look so conservative but to have F*cked with the language of conservatism in that way really makes their head hurt.

I wish I could explain this stuff! Chris H. & Andersen will make a better job of all of this.

So the difference between 'U.S. Trad' compared to the 'U.K. take on U.S. Trad' is one purely of intention.
We wear the same clothes, but you wear them to follow your Tradition, to join in. We wear them not to join in. To go our own stylistic way.

Actually, thinking about it, The originals (Chris H. & Andersen, etc) adopted 'the look' to break with Tradition.
I came along later & adopted the look to break with Tradition, yes, but also to join their new 'tradition' - This wonderful 'Don't I look straight? Ha Ha Fooled ya' kinda thing.

Please let's kick this one around! (It's why I'm here!)

Russell
 

AZTEC

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
quote:Originally posted by mpcsb

quote:Originally posted by RichardS

Such threads remind me why I love this forum.[:I]

And sometimes I have no idea what is being talked about - Sargent Wilson - Andersen shelter - Morrison shelter - Private Pike ? What's a poor Yank to do - sigh.
Cheers

"Trad Army" is a pun on "Dad's Army" a TV comedy series popular in the UK in the 1960's or early 1970's. It was set during WW2, the story of a rag-tag group of elderly reservists, who bumbled their way through the war protecting the home front. Their part-time army ranks reflected the local social pecking order and the comedy often arose out of the absurdity of the british class system. It included well known british actors such as John LeMesurier. Maybe a google search will shed more light.

AZTEC


**************************************
 

winn

New Member
The term 'trad', when used in regard to music in the UK, usually refers to english jazz bands that played in the 'dixieland' style.(Chris H., 20 February 2006)


Hello Chris -

What about the use of "trad", when used in regard to music in the UK, with ballads and songs that that author is anonymous, or just not known? I have been to many sings in homes and pubs here in the States, and some in the UK, where "brit trad" music is sung. What about the Copper Family, Cyril Tawney, and the like? And the collecting work of Cecil Sharp with song and local morris choreography, and tunes collected by John Playford?

(By the way, I am very much enjoying this thread.)

Cheers,
Winn
 

Russell Street

Senior Member
One for ANDERSEN -

Hope you are well & will get the chance to open your closet at some point today.
I'm listening to Tina Brooks & sending you Tradly best wishes (I know that the word 'Tradly' belongs to Harris, and I'm using it as an homage to him as his fantastic 'American Trad' posts are what brought me here.)
Although I don't have to be as cautious as you, I do know how easy it is to annoy your spouse with too much 'Patch & Flappery'.
So good luck with all that.

What about Chris H., eh?

A BIT OF A FACE !

Are you, Chris, & I the only 'J.Simons English Style American Trads' then so far?
Young Vettriano may be joining the party - We need to thrash out 'terms'.
I guess Mr. Trimmer & Mr. Morrison are the 'English Trads' for our little clique.

Chris H. plays on 'Modculture' sometimes (I'm pretty sure it is he)
He could maybe get us some people like 'Bomber' and 'Machiatto-Man '(sp?) from there. 'Hubert Swain' too? Don't know.
Is John Gall, who does J. Simon's website, 'Machiatto-Man'? Chris would know. I only get reports from the site via my chum Davey ('Give my regards to Davey') who keeps an eye on it. D. is only 40, but still pretty good for an 'Anglo-Ivy-Stylist'. (Could that be a term?)
I've looked at Modculture but find it too 'Mod' & not 'Modernist' enough for me. (By which I mean reading it reminds me of my age, although I could have been a 'Mod' maybe - I was 15 in '65. But I never knew about 'The Look' untill I was 21, and it wouldn't do to pretend I was there when things were happening when I wasn't. I was alive, but I was oblivious.

Whatever -

Russell
 

Chris H

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
quote:
I remember that local British trad jazz bands, the ones that played in pubs, wore jackets and ties (as did people like Alexis Korner, Cyril Davis and Long John Baldry). I don't know whether the jackets were undarted. A lot of punters wore duffle coats or shorty "car coats" I remember. Knitted ties... What did they have on their feet? Chelsea boots came later.

Most of the trad jazz musicians just wore regular english style clothing. The trad jazz fans were rather scruffy. I believe they were the forerunners of beatnicks.
Some of the R&B players like Eric Clapton, Georgie Fame, Charlie Watts took up the Ivy league undarted look.
The Ivy league look first became popular in the UK in the 1950s with the early modernists like Anderson who were modern jazz fans and who adopted the dress style of musicians like Miles Davis, the MJQ and Gerry Mulligan.
Long John Baldry was a very smart fellow who dressed in his own style.

Chris
 

Chris H

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
quote:Originally posted by winn

The term 'trad', when used in regard to music in the UK, usually refers to english jazz bands that played in the 'dixieland' style.(Chris H., 20 February 2006)


Hello Chris -

What about the use of "trad", when used in regard to music in the UK, with ballads and songs that that author is anonymous, or just not known? I have been to many sings in homes and pubs here in the States, and some in the UK, where "brit trad" music is sung. What about the Copper Family, Cyril Tawney, and the like? And the collecting work of Cecil Sharp with song and local morris choreography, and tunes collected by John Playford?

(By the way, I am very much enjoying this thread.)

Cheers,
Winn

Hello Winn,

Yes, I believe the trad term is applied to traditional english folk songs that have been handed down through the generations. All these uses of the word 'trad' are, I think, really just an abreviation of the word traditional.

Chris
 

Hugh Morrison

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
quote:Originally posted by AZTEC

quote:Originally posted by mpcsb

quote:Originally posted by RichardS

Such threads remind me why I love this forum.[:I]

And sometimes I have no idea what is being talked about - Sargent Wilson - Andersen shelter - Morrison shelter - Private Pike ? What's a poor Yank to do - sigh.
Cheers

"Trad Army" is a pun on "Dad's Army" a TV comedy series popular in the UK in the 1960's or early 1970's. It was set during WW2, the story of a rag-tag group of elderly reservists, who bumbled their way through the war protecting the home front. Their part-time army ranks reflected the local social pecking order and the comedy often arose out of the absurdity of the british class system. It included well known british actors such as John LeMesurier. Maybe a google search will shed more light.

AZTEC


**************************************

Sergeant Wilson - aristocratic trad character in Dad's Army with VERY cool '1970s trying to look 1940s' hair. Private Pike - his dimwitted 'nephew'. Andersen shelter: corrugated iron government issue air-raid shelter used in private gardens during WWII. Some still survive as potting sheds etc. Morrison shelter - govt. issue air raid shelter for indoor use.

'The casual idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large (because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental)'- Patrick07690
 

Russell Street

Senior Member
Not working yet, is this Chris?
I'm holding out for Horace... maybe.

Ahhhhhhh, who knows?

Always happy to quit & go my own way at the end of the day.

I'd love to make them 'get it'.

It's all educational, isn't it?

Russell
 

Russell Street

Senior Member
Chris -

Had a think and am giving up.

Don't really want to play on 'Modculture' at my age, though.

Probably it's best to keep 'The Look' not making sense.
After all, that is the point, isn't it?

Could have been such good fun!

And I missed out the class element! (Fool)
Love it that 'The Look' is Gay, Jewish, Black, and WORKING CLASS!
Gave it such a kick for a white middle-class boy like me.
But then, of course, 'The Look' isn't really my story to tell anyway. I just fell over it out for a walk one day.
It belongs to the teenage working-class stylists who created it.

'Mrs. Street' will be pleased I'm not on the computer so much from now on!

Thought you were cool.
Was Andersen real?
I wondered. Hope he is.

Russell
 

Chris H

Active Member with Corp. Privileges
quote:Edit: Botany 500 and Gerry Mulligan. Very cool. Whatever happened to Botany 500?

Just spotted this. I picked up a Botany 500 undarted natural shoulder jacket in 3/4" herringbone tweed, 2.5" lapels, raised seams, half-lined and 7" vent for 99c plus shipping from ebay last year. I love it.
 
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