Adriel Rowley

Senior Member
Well dressed men, the shirt collar comes close or sometimes touching the suit collar/lapel.


However, most men, there is a gap, sometimes quite large, as this case.


So then, why this gap and what can be done when choosing a shirt and suit?

TIA. :)
 

Matt S

Connoisseur
The second example shows a poorly fitted jacket. But if you're just talking about the collar points reaching the jacket's lapels, that has to do with wearing the right kind of collar. You need a spread collar rather than a point collar. Prince Charles wears spread collars that have points long enough to reach the lapels.
 

Flanderian

Connoisseur
Well dressed men, the shirt collar comes close or sometimes touching the suit collar/lapel.


However, most men, there is a gap, sometimes quite large, as this case.


So then, why this gap and what can be done when choosing a shirt and suit?

TIA. :)
While Charles' clothing fits him beautifully, the gentleman beneath does not have the same advantage, I think you're extrapolating from the comparison a principle which is at most a preference. Many collars deliberately do not have points which reach the inner edge of a jacket's lapel. Common examples include tab collars, BD's, and club collars. And some are just shorter point collars. I think what you may be confusing is that your eye is seeking a pleasing harmony of proportion among the collar, tie knot and jacket V. But that can be achieved in multiple ways.

If you wish to have a geometry similar to Charles', your collar points just simply need to be long enough to reach the inner edge of the lapel. The jacket's V is dependent on your size in relation to the other items you're wearing, and a proper fit. I.e., larger men will obviously have a larger space, and may benefit from longer collar points and and a tie of adequate width.
 
Last edited:

EclecticSr.

Super Member
Will not wear a shirt where collar does not reach under jacket lapel. Seems a common look these days.
Not to mention football sized tie knots, even worse tie knots that fall short of the intersection of shirt collar spread.
 

Adriel Rowley

Senior Member
The second example shows a poorly fitted jacket. But if you're just talking about the collar points reaching the jacket's lapels, that has to do with wearing the right kind of collar. You need a spread collar rather than a point collar. Prince Charles wears spread collars that have points long enough to reach the lapels.
Matt, so then I got lucky working with a MTM shirt company creating a point collar which does has no gap? Just curious and trying to understand the statement.


While Charles' clothing fits him beautifully, the gentleman beneath does not have the same advantage, I think you're extrapolating from the comparison a principle which is at most a preference. Many collars deliberately do not have points which reach the inner edge of a jacket's lapel. Common examples include tab collars, BD's, and club collars. And some are just shorter point collars. I think what you may be confusing is that your eye is seeking a pleasing harmony of proportion among the collar, tie knot and jacket V. But that can be achieved in multiple ways.
That was also a wondering, however, thought thought one question was enough?

Understand about certain collars not touching, however, for button down and tab, shouldn't the gab be reasonable? Take the picture and change to these and be about four inch gap.

I prefer longer pointed collars (don't care if make my long face longer, spreads require a large knot) and prefer a Bertie or Four-in-Hand knot.

If you wish to have a geometry similar to Charles', your collar points just simply need to be long enough to reach the inner edge of the lapel. The jacket's V is dependent on your size in relation to the other items you're wearing, and a proper fit. I.e., larger men will obviously have a larger space, and may benefit from longer collar points and and a tie of adequate width.
Ah, that makes sense. Wouldn't the suit's button stance and type also have an affect?
 

Matt S

Connoisseur
Matt, so then I got lucky working with a MTM shirt company creating a point collar which does has no gap? Just curious and trying to understand the statement.
If the spread is just wide enough and the points are long enough, the collar points will meet the lapels.

The cut of the jacket matters too. Years ago, I read an article written by the eloquent tailor Thomas Mahon about straight vs crooked cuts. This can also make a difference, perhaps moreso than how high the jacket buttons. Read here: http://www.city-connect.org/straight-or-crooked/
 

Flanderian

Connoisseur
If the spread is just wide enough and the points are long enough, the collar points will meet the lapels.

The cut of the jacket matters too. Years ago, I read an article written by the eloquent tailor Thomas Mahon about straight vs crooked cuts. This can also make a difference, perhaps moreso than how high the jacket buttons. Read here: http://www.city-connect.org/straight-or-crooked/
+1!

I've noted that in the 30's the fashionable cut produced a comparatively small V. This resulted from a fairly high button stance, or vest, and collars, the tops of ties (But not their aprons) and the knots they tied were proportionately smaller to harmoniously fill this smaller space.



2530a7d577d27bbc55a399f5b4290127.jpg
 

eagle2250

Connoisseur/Curmudgeon Emeritus - Moderator
+1!

I've noted that in the 30's the fashionable cut produced a comparatively small V. This resulted from a fairly high button stance, or vest, and collars, the tops of ties (But not their aprons) and the knots they tied were proportionately smaller to harmoniously fill this smaller space.



View attachment 47660
The illustration narrative tells us that the Model No 605 is a sack designed suit, but the suit pictured reveals obvious darts. I thought sack suits were undarted...or has our terminology changed over the years? ;)
 

Peak and Pine

Connoisseur
The illustration narrative tells us that the Model No 605 is a sack designed suit, but the suit pictured reveals obvious darts. I thought sack suits were undarted...or has our terminology changed over the years? ;)
Very observant. The 605 is also refered to as "Young men's". Dude tucked inside it ain't no young man. Believe the illustration to be a lesser effort, about 6 jars of paint short of a Norman Rockwell.
 

Matt S

Connoisseur
The illustration narrative tells us that the Model No 605 is a sack designed suit, but the suit pictured reveals obvious darts. I thought sack suits were undarted...or has our terminology changed over the years? ;)
Yes, the terminology has changed over the years. 'Sack' used to be the American term for a lounge coat/lounge jacket (the British terms), whether or not it had darts. Now the term has been dumbed down to 'blazer'.
 

Flanderian

Connoisseur
The illustration narrative tells us that the Model No 605 is a sack designed suit, but the suit pictured reveals obvious darts. I thought sack suits were undarted...or has our terminology changed over the years? ;)
My information comports with Matt's; sack was once used simply as a generic term for a jacket.

Yes, the terminology has changed over the years. 'Sack' used to be the American term for a lounge coat/lounge jacket (the British terms), whether or not it had darts. Now the term has been dumbed down to 'blazer'.
 

eagle2250

Connoisseur/Curmudgeon Emeritus - Moderator
Yes, the terminology has changed over the years. 'Sack' used to be the American term for a lounge coat/lounge jacket (the British terms), whether or not it had darts. Now the term has been dumbed down to 'blazer'.
My information comports with Matt's; sack was once used simply as a generic term for a jacket.
Thanks to both of you for the clarification.. ...I am indeed wiser for your efforts! ;)
 

Dhaller

Advanced Member
Collar gap: I think even the best-fitted suits "gap" as the body moves uncooperatively throughout the day. It afflicts the best of us (witness the attached image).

Movement! Thou bane to fashion!... there's a reason catwalk models are so stiff and mannered.

One either masters the gangster's "pop", or simply adjusts at needed moments (like a photo op).

1266_prince-charles-collar-gap.jpg


DH
 

Flanderian

Connoisseur
Collar gap: I think even the best-fitted suits "gap" as the body moves uncooperatively throughout the day. It afflicts the best of us (witness the attached image).

Movement! Thou bane to fashion!... there's a reason catwalk models are so stiff and mannered.

One either masters the gangster's "pop", or simply adjusts at needed moments (like a photo op).

View attachment 47677

DH
Agree entirely. Even the best tailored clothing can move a bit as we do and assume different postures. I'm quite sure the jacket above (Of ravishing cloth! 👍) didn't sit off the collar when Good Time Charlie was being fitted.
 

Adriel Rowley

Senior Member
If the spread is just wide enough and the points are long enough, the collar points will meet the lapels.

The cut of the jacket matters too. Years ago, I read an article written by the eloquent tailor Thomas Mahon about straight vs crooked cuts. This can also make a difference, perhaps moreso than how high the jacket buttons. Read here: http://www.city-connect.org/straight-or-crooked/
Matt, thank you for this information, especially, the video, I do so much better with visual learning than auditory/written. Just took me a bit to get my "homework" done.

So would a strait coat tend to hang open and a crooked more closed, when unbuttoned?


+1!

I've noted that in the 30's the fashionable cut produced a comparatively small V. This resulted from a fairly high button stance, or vest, and collars, the tops of ties (But not their aprons) and the knots they tied were proportionately smaller to harmoniously fill this smaller space.



View attachment 47660
Would you say the smaller V be also due to the then view of shirts being underwear (which apparently still true in the UK)?

Shouldn't the thinner man wear a more trim suit, therefore less shirt and tie?

Happen to know if a strait or crooked cut?

By the way, for some reason find 604 very appealing and never thought would like windowpane.


Collar gap: I think even the best-fitted suits "gap" as the body moves uncooperatively throughout the day. It afflicts the best of us (witness the attached image).

Movement! Thou bane to fashion!... there's a reason catwalk models are so stiff and mannered.

One either masters the gangster's "pop", or simply adjusts at needed moments (like a photo op).

View attachment 47677

DH
I would wonder why the coat is riding back, maybe because it is soft? One of my suit coats is so firm and heavy, just drapes so always feels so comfortable.

As to the gap, to the trained, one can see just see the coat needs to be repositioned. Obviously the photographer wasn't privy to this, so what be a smashing photograph is ruined.
 
Your email address will not be publicly visible. We will only use it to contact you to confirm your post.

IMPORTANT: BEFORE POSTING PLEASE CHECK THE DATE OF THE LAST POST OF THIS THREAD. IF IT'S VERY OLD, PLEASE CONSIDER REGISTERING FIRST, AND STARTING A NEW THREAD ABOUT THIS TOPIC.