eagle2250

Connoisseur/Curmudgeon Emeritus - Moderator
29,660
Harmony, FL
United States
Florida
Harmony
Were you kidding about the TMI vs TKI ? o_O
LOL. Not kidding, but once again...mistaken. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. It's been corrected! Jeez Louise, perhaps it's time for the kids to put me in a home? :crazy: ;)
 

Fading Fast

Connoisseur
7,614
United States
New York
NY
If you go back and read the fiction and non-fiction of the times ('30s-mid '60s) and watch the movies and documentaries, you realize (let me emphasize, this is MHO, I'm very open to other points of view) that dressing up, looking properly attired was - for adults (kids in a moment) - a cultural norm.

Adults (the majority - of course, there were many exceptions both individuals and subcultures) wanted to dress nicely / aspired to wearing nicer clothes. There's a scene in the 1949 movie "Holiday Affair" where a homeless man is truly appreciative of receiving a tie as a gift. While only an example, it reflects what was the meme / norm / zeitgeist of the time: whatever your current situation, you tried to dress well / dress better.

Movie stars where fashion icons in a manner very different than today: they wore well-tailored and high-quality suits and ties (or similar) in most situations. College students, in many ways, were the most fastidious dressers of them all - Esquire magazine from the decades noted above provides incredible evidence of this.

To be sure, some kids in that era were "rebels" who tried to push against the prevailing norms of dress, but many (I'd argue the majority) wanted to dress nicer / dress like adults.

The late '60s was when this cultural norm broke. Ever since, the norm has shifted to "doing your own thing," which also includes dressing your own way. There is much more to that shift, which would all very quickly become political - so I'll stop here.

The not-too-political point that I find interesting is not that the rules have changed, but that, IMHO, the rules changed (at schools, restaurants, clubs, etc.) because the culture changed; hence, a new dress code can address (tee-tee) a narrow situation (no shorts in a restaurant, say), but the real change is in the hard to define, hard to control "culture" that completely changed its attitude toward clothes.

My personal views - I'll respect anyone who has honesty and integrity - no mattered how attired; and have no interest in a liar or cheat - even if in the nicest suit. That said, I liked, for aesthetic reasons, when people dressed nicer - as noted, I don't think it reflects someone's character or is a "big" issue, but I did like it better as I thought we all looked nicer.
 
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Flanderian

Connoisseur
21,097
United States
New Jersey
Flanders
i live in Austin, Texas. The Austin Independent School District is in the process of updating its dress code, partially in response to legal action alleging gender and racial discrimination. I actually agree that it so discriminates, but then I am not afraid of a person just because they are black and wearing a hoodie. Truth be told a country guy with a bunch of keys on a chain and the imprint of his chaw can on his rear pocket freaks me out more. I digress. Under consideration are allowing the wearing of short shorts and spaghetti straps (not really surprised) and pajamas (!) and allowing underwear to show as long as the entire article is not visible. One of the points I have heard raised is “if that’s what makes them comfortable, it’s okay as long as they are focused on learning.” To that I offer my observation that learning how the world dresses and behaves is of value, perhaps more value for some than learning about parabolas and diagramming sentences. I also share that I was sent to boys schools that required coats and ties. Since our buildings were not air conditioned, once the mercury was regularly hitting the mid-eighties, we were allowed to wear Bermuda shorts. Our academic dean observed to me that when that took place academic performance fell off markedly. I don’t know that this establishes a direct correlation, but dressing up a bit does bring about decorum that has some value. At any rate, Austin is clearly leaning towards sartorial anarchy as a panacea, and I’m saddened by it. Just imagine how jarring and uncomfortable it will be for these kids if work ever requires them to dress up a bit.
Gee, it's a pity I'm too old to see Newton's 3rd Law in full effect in 15 or 20 years! :D


 

FLMike

Connoisseur
5,791
United States
FL
West Coast
The letters in Tim can be rearranged and have capitalization supplied to form TMI. My initials are TKI.
Yes, I know. You missed the irony in eagle’s goof. He was trying to be funny by getting your initials right, but still including the “1” before 67. He messed up the punchline by getting another part of your initials wrong in the process.
 

Charles Dana

Honors Member
3,083
United States
California
San Francisco
Dressing up, looking properly attired was - for adults - a cultural norm. Adults wanted to dress nicely/ aspired to wearing nicer clothes. Movie stars were fashion icons in a manner very different than today.
Correct, and...

The late '60s was when this cultural norm broke.
Yes. To be precise, it broke on Wednesday, September 11, 1968 at approximately 11:32 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.

That's when Robert Culp sauntered into a television studio and began guest-hosting an episode of "The Joey Bishop Show," a late-night talk show that tried to compete with Johnny Carson for a couple of years.

By September 1968, Robert Culp (with his co-star, Bill Cosby) had just wrapped up the third and final season of the hit show "I Spy." Up until that time, I had never seen Culp wear anything but proper grown-man attire: generally, suit and tie or sport coat and tie. While in character as Kelly Robinson, a spy masquerading as a tennis pro, Robert Culp also wore casual clothing that was sometimes a little fashion forward--white jeans and white sneakers. However, his v-neck sweaters and pullover velour shirts were always neat and understated. He dressed the way I aspired to eventually dress (except perhaps for the white jeans).

I loved watching talk shows in the 1960s. As of September 11, 1968, the new school year hadn't yet begun, which meant I could stay up late again and watch my favorite talk show: "The Joey Bishop Show." That night, the show starts and Regis Philbin, the announcer, says that Robert Culp will be the guest host. Oh, OK. "Ladies and gentlemen, here's Robert Culp." At first I thought the man walking out to center stage wasn't Culp. But he was Robert Culp, except that he was decked out in full hippie regalia--a tunic with a wild pattern that went down to mid-thigh, beads, eyeglasses with tinted lenses. I don't remember if he was wearing bell-bottom jeans, but I do know that from head to toe, he was in total flower child mode. No button-down shirt. No jacket or tie. Just 100%, high octane Haight-Ashbury duds.

I was astonished and disillusioned. Where's my natty spy?! I had, of course, witnessed the advent of hippie fashions starting in 1965-66. I had come to expect young people in general and members of rock bands in particular to embrace the "flower power" look. But buttoned-down Robert Culp? Good Lord, he was 38 years old in the fall of 1968--almost a geezer! If he's dressed like the hippiest of hippies--AND while he's hosting a network television show--I guess the fashion metamorphosis was complete.

And the imago was Robert Culp, who, in shedding his "I Spy" persona on September 11, 1968, broke the "cultural norm."

What the heck, that's as good a date as any to fix as the beginning of the end of the sartorial "norm" that Fading Fast mentioned.
 
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Kennedy Jr. Jr.

New Member
31
New York, NY
United States
NY
New York
Yes, a question that has apparently been deleted (not by me). And yes, he twice accused me of insulting him, which I obviously did not do. Not going the stoop to get into it with him, though.
This is childish. And exactly the behavior this forum is infamous for. I'm new here, and now I'll leave here. Thanks to those who made it a welcoming community. To those that did not, good wishes regardless, and I hope you find a way to unclench someday.
 

Fading Fast

Connoisseur
7,614
United States
New York
NY
Correct, and...



Yes. To be precise, it broke on Wednesday, September 11, 1968 at approximately 11:32 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.

That's when Robert Culp sauntered into a television studio and began guest-hosting an episode of "The Joey Bishop Show," a late-night talk show that tried to compete with Johnny Carson for a couple of years.

By September 1968, Robert Culp (with his co-star, Bill Cosby) had just wrapped up the third and final season of the hit show "I Spy." Up until that time, I had never seen Culp wear anything but proper grown-man attire: generally, suit and tie or sport coat and tie. While in character as Kelly Robinson, a spy masquerading as a tennis pro, Robert Culp also wore casual clothing that was sometimes a little fashion forward--white jeans and white sneakers. However, his v-neck sweaters and pullover velour shirts were always neat and understated. He dressed the way I aspired to eventually dress (except perhaps for the white jeans).

I loved watching talk shows in the 1960s. As of September 11, 1968, the new school year hadn't yet begun, which meant I could stay up late again and watch my favorite talk show: "The Joey Bishop Show." That night, the show starts and Regis Philbin, the announcer, says that Robert Culp will be the guest host. Oh, OK. "Ladies and gentlemen, here's Robert Culp." At first I thought the man walking out to center stage wasn't Culp. But he was Robert Culp, except that he was decked out in full hippie regalia--a tunic with a wild pattern that went down to mid-thigh, beads, eyeglasses with tinted lenses. I don't remember if he was wearing bell-bottom jeans, but I do know that from head to toe, he was in total flower child mode. No button-down shirt. No jacket or tie. Just 100%, high octane Haight-Ashbury duds.

I was astonished and disillusioned. Where's my natty spy?! I had, of course, witnessed the advent of hippie fashions starting in 1965-66. I had come to expect young people in general and members of rock bands in particular to embrace the "flower power" look. But buttoned-down Robert Culp? Good Lord, he was 38 years old in the fall of 1968--almost a geezer! If he's dressed like the hippiest of hippies--AND while he's hosting a network television show--I guess the fashion metamorphosis was complete.

And the imago was Robert Culp, who, in shedding his "I Spy" persona on September 11, 1968, broke the "cultural norm."

What the heck, that's as good a date as any to fix as the beginning of the end of the sartorial "norm" that Fading Fast mentioned.
Very enjoyable story.
 

TKI67

Senior Member
998
United States
Texas
Austin
Correct, and...



Yes. To be precise, it broke on Wednesday, September 11, 1968 at approximately 11:32 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.

That's when Robert Culp sauntered into a television studio and began guest-hosting an episode of "The Joey Bishop Show," a late-night talk show that tried to compete with Johnny Carson for a couple of years.

By September 1968, Robert Culp (with his co-star, Bill Cosby) had just wrapped up the third and final season of the hit show "I Spy." Up until that time, I had never seen Culp wear anything but proper grown-man attire: generally, suit and tie or sport coat and tie. While in character as Kelly Robinson, a spy masquerading as a tennis pro, Robert Culp also wore casual clothing that was sometimes a little fashion forward--white jeans and white sneakers. However, his v-neck sweaters and pullover velour shirts were always neat and understated. He dressed the way I aspired to eventually dress (except perhaps for the white jeans).

I loved watching talk shows in the 1960s. As of September 11, 1968, the new school year hadn't yet begun, which meant I could stay up late again and watch my favorite talk show: "The Joey Bishop Show." That night, the show starts and Regis Philbin, the announcer, says that Robert Culp will be the guest host. Oh, OK. "Ladies and gentlemen, here's Robert Culp." At first I thought the man walking out to center stage wasn't Culp. But he was Robert Culp, except that he was decked out in full hippie regalia--a tunic with a wild pattern that went down to mid-thigh, beads, eyeglasses with tinted lenses. I don't remember if he was wearing bell-bottom jeans, but I do know that from head to toe, he was in total flower child mode. No button-down shirt. No jacket or tie. Just 100%, high octane Haight-Ashbury duds.

I was astonished and disillusioned. Where's my natty spy?! I had, of course, witnessed the advent of hippie fashions starting in 1965-66. I had come to expect young people in general and members of rock bands in particular to embrace the "flower power" look. But buttoned-down Robert Culp? Good Lord, he was 38 years old in the fall of 1968--almost a geezer! If he's dressed like the hippiest of hippies--AND while he's hosting a network television show--I guess the fashion metamorphosis was complete.

And the imago was Robert Culp, who, in shedding his "I Spy" persona on September 11, 1968, broke the "cultural norm."

What the heck, that's as good a date as any to fix as the beginning of the end of the sartorial "norm" that Fading Fast mentioned.
A wonderful and insightful placing of the time of death. In a much smaller and more personal way, for me it was when the Beatles released Sgt. Pepper. A high school chum and I were in DC, having a beer at Arnold’s Hofbrau. We were wearing coats and ties, asking the pianist to play favorites and feeding the tip jar so she could feed her highball. During a break we heard a bit of the new record on the radio, and it clicked that the world had shifted in a major way for me. By the end of the summer of 1967 I was in college in LA, embracing the change. I exited the TNSIL world until 1976 when I began my legal and banking career at the Fed where wearing shoes was highly encouraged.
 

Natsoi

New Member
49
New Zealand
Auckland
Auckland
Almost all high schools here have a uniform. In fact, our headmaster and some of the other masters (yes, that’s what teachers were/are called) would be at the gate to make sure shirts and high socks were pulled up and tucked in at the end of school.

This was not that long ago (15 years). I remember the deans also kept sets of disposable razors handy, in case anyone needed to be reminded on the policy for facial hair.

The reasoning was that people were free to attend any school they wanted but at this school there were standards.

I guess the point I would make is that the standard of dress is only one data-point. If you’re wearing T-shirt’s and still get a good education I think that’s fine.

From my personal experience the more restrictive and traditional education was exactly what I needed to keep me on the straight and narrow...